tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post107814942666637374..comments2024-03-29T00:44:42.046+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: More Latté Than Lager: Reflections on Grant Robertson's Campaign LaunchChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-19521993426912381802014-10-25T21:32:43.210+13:002014-10-25T21:32:43.210+13:00Agree, Victor that anyone with half the sense they...Agree, Victor that anyone with half the sense they were born with would avoid politics as they are now like the plague.<br /> I also wonder if subsequent to that, the lack of inspirational leaders isnt also a consequence of a couple of generations of the WIIFM mentality where altruism is belittled as naivety .<br /> Nationals leadership issues were only solved when John Key was shipped in from without...perhaps the lefts leadership problems may be solved that way also.It appears to me that this failing is a direct consequence of career politcians, which appears to me to be increasingly encouraged, particularly when you note the ages of many participants in recent times (waits for the shouts of indignation)<br /> Meritocracy may have played a hand (with the powers that be identifying and counter proposing fields of interest to potential adversaries) but one does not have to been a blue collar worker to know the tribulations of the working man...there will have been many sons and daughters from working class backgrounds who have bettered themselves as their parents hoped...surely those formative years play a significant role in their outlook? <br /> And the electorate? once again I submit that the issues are significantly more complex , deliberately so in many cases and the vast majority have neither the time nor inclination to attempt to untangle the rhetoric dished up to them....life was simpler in the pre Neolib days.<br /> <br /> pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50104762763864508792014-10-25T14:23:16.929+13:002014-10-25T14:23:16.929+13:00GS
You are certainly correct that we still have v...GS<br /><br />You are certainly correct that we still have very large numbers of working poor. Indeed, their numbers are poised to swell significantly, not because of more jobs becoming available but as a result of the impoverishment of many a hitherto aspirational household, as (surprise, surprise) "trickle down" fails to manifest itself. <br /><br />But it's much harder these days to find the circumstances that once produced consciously working class, mass political movements. <br /><br />Nor is it clear that, were greater numbers of the non-voting working poor to cast their ballots, they would do so for Social Democratic parties and not (for example) for the likes of Nigel Farrage or Marine le Pen. <br /><br />Pat<br /><br />I certainly agree that the shortage of political talent affects the Right as well as the Left.<br /><br />One possible reason for this is that we've had thirty plus years of the right-wing deriding government and hence, by implication, politics as a whole. <br /><br />Why spend your life engaged in something that most of your contemporaries regards as boring and inconsequential, if not wholly undesirable? <br /><br />Another possible reason is that the 24 hour news cycle, an ever more prurient, partisan and sensationalist media, the rise of social media etc. render political life ever less attractive to most people with a grain of sense. <br /><br />But I think that Social Democratic parties have had problems that extend beyond such factors.<br /><br />Following World War Two, such parties were in the ideological ascendent, with ideas that seemed cogent, clear and proven by experience. Even their opponents felt the need to adopt many of their policies. And so,if you were an intelligent, able and ambitious young person, a career in a party of the Left seemed like an enticing option. <br /><br />But the Right grabbed that ascendency in the 1970s and '80s and it's taken the worst recession since the '30s to even start reversing the process. <br /><br />Moreover, I agree with GS that we no longer seem to produce left-wing leaders who have both direct experience of being an "ordinary" worker and the skills required to articulate effectively in government at a national level. A 21st century Nye Bevan would be hard to imagine. <br /><br />One way of looking at this is that we've had just enough Meritocracy to syphon off the natural leaders of what was once thought of as the working class but not enough Meritocracy to disturb the processes of wealth accumulation and concentration.<br /><br />Another way of looking at it is that Meritocracy is a form of social organisation that exists between the demise of one hereditary ruling class and the rise of another. Normally, it lasts for just one generation.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8726456067080054102014-10-24T22:11:18.598+13:002014-10-24T22:11:18.598+13:00Victor, Surgeon and Pat; you have put forward some...Victor, Surgeon and Pat; you have put forward some very good ideas and thoughts.<br /><br />What I fear is a revolution which some say is already starting. Occupy, Ukraine, Hong Kong etc. In the past when these kind of economic policies were put into place eventually the wealthy and aristocracy lost their heads and it's likely to happen again. I'm not advocating a revolution but I can see it happening if something is not done to alleviate the suffering at the bottom.<br /><br />Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-616178549742243572014-10-24T20:05:57.548+13:002014-10-24T20:05:57.548+13:00Interesting analysis Victor. Would take issue with...Interesting analysis Victor. Would take issue with a couple of points however...the lack of talent is not solely a concern for the left of the political spectrum, I think an honest appraisal of the entire house would reveal a general dearth across the board...and the problem would appear to not be limited to NZ .<br /> Personally I suspect the cause of the lefts current struggles in the western democracies can be traced to the snake oil Neo Lib economics promoted by the real power in the world , the international corporates.<br /> They have essentially bought up the MSM, they are endeavoring to gain complete control of the universities, and have the banks in their pocket. What hope for any party of the left that shows any sign of deviation from "the plan" if those influences are lined up against them?<br /> The time will come when the wheels fall completely off this very flawed model but I fear while they can maintain the illusion of control the Left is in for a very lean period....unfortunately it will be the Left that has to try and put the whole thing back together when (not if) it does shit itself.<br />pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-29880626174011777762014-10-24T18:51:30.551+13:002014-10-24T18:51:30.551+13:00We still have what should be traditional labour vo...We still have what should be traditional labour voters Victor – it's just that they are now in service industry jobs earning a minimum wage. And pretty much completely de-unionised. I think that's the crux of the matter here. In places that still have relatively strong unions, workers conditions are much better than equivalent places without. Mind you, you are right about leadership. There's not that self educated backbone of working class politicians that there used to be. Someone with a bit of experience with their hands, but with a brain – not so much more intelligent than the rest, but with a bit more gumption. I think gumption is been beaten out of the working class these days. There's a few bright sparks in what's left of the union movement, but they seem to be more activist than politician. Just an IMO, might be wrong – have lost touch with the union movement in the last 10 years or so.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82023370286427914592014-10-24T14:24:09.459+13:002014-10-24T14:24:09.459+13:00It seems to me that Labour has been in inevitable ...It seems to me that Labour has been in inevitable decline for many decades. The same is true of most other center-left, industrial worker-based parties across the developed world. <br /><br />There are many reasons for this but the most obvious is that the workers most clearly resembling the traditional left's perception of them now live, primarily,in the Shenzhen Special Economic Zone and other similarly choice locations. <br /><br />This doesn't mean that the policies of centre-left parties are no longer relevant. But it does mean that their traditional voting base has fractured, often under the very economic stresses that the centre-left has traditionally identified and sought to combat. <br /><br />One result of this has been that high achievers are now only rarely drawn to Social Democratic politics or, indeed, to politics in any shape. In consequence, it's getting harder and harder to put a decent front bench together. <br /><br />In New Zealand's case, this decline was speeded along by Labour's perverse embrace of extreme market liberalism in the 1980s. But the decline would have happened anyhow. Moreover, a certain amount of economic restructuring was probably required in the light of New Zealand's loss of its cornucopian protected market in the UK. <br /><br />In contrast to her former colleagues amongst the Rogergnomes, Helen Clark managed to provide us with nine years of above average government(by the Anglosphere's current lamentable standards).<br /><br />She was, of course, helped by a benign phase in the global economic cycle, by her innate caution, by Michael Cullen's skilled if highly conservative exercise of his role and, initially at least, by the inclusion of Alliance members on her front bench, thus mitigating the talent deficit already obvious in Labour's ranks.<br /><br />None of these considerations, however, can take away Ms Clark's personal achievement in restraining though not reversing the neo-liberal tide. King Cnut could surely have taken some lessons from her. <br /><br />But then she was gone and only the epigones remained. To the extent that she restrained the rightward momentum of politics for nearly a decade, you can understand why the right regards her legacy as toxic. <br /><br />So, for the moment, the only show in town is watching the epigones destroy each other. I don't see another Auntie Helen amongst them, impressive though Mr Roberson's political skills might be.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82348669370215984172014-10-23T21:33:53.450+13:002014-10-23T21:33:53.450+13:00Helen Clark got the population ponzi up and runnin...Helen Clark got the population ponzi up and running and John key has grabbed the batten (for Connell Townsend of the Property Council)<br />We don't manufacture cars here do we? Airplanes? Shoes? Oh No: we're in <i>Realestate</i>jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-72307536774924354862014-10-23T21:29:14.565+13:002014-10-23T21:29:14.565+13:00Helen Clark's toxic legacy?
FFS, that woman s...Helen Clark's toxic legacy?<br /><br />FFS, that woman saved New Zealand from becoming a third world country.<br />... she changed the national identity (without a mandate).<br />In fact she told Sir John McClennan: "New Zealand was really a very racist country, and she was determined to do everything she could as prime minister to change that."<br />and while she touted the need for a larger population the Savings Working Group say:<br />“The big adverse gap in productivity between New Zealand and other countries opened up from the 1970s to the early 1990s. The policy choice that increased immigration – given the number of employers increasingly unable to pay First-World wages to the existing population and all the capital requirements that increasing populations involve – looks likely to have worked almost directly against the adjustment New Zealand needed to make and it might have been better off with a lower rate of net immigration. This adjustment would have involved a lower real interest rate (and cost of capital) and a lower real exchange rate, meaning a more favourable environment for raising the low level of productive capital per worker and labour productivity. The low level of capital per worker is a striking symptom of New Zealand’s economic challenge.<br />”<br />http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/reviews-consultation/savingsworkinggroup/pdfs/swg-report-jan11.pdf<br /><br />Gross arrogance if you ask me (and bone ignorant)jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-23645363157047482572014-10-23T19:34:02.892+13:002014-10-23T19:34:02.892+13:00I too would like to know what that toxic legacy wa...I too would like to know what that toxic legacy was as well.<br /><br />@Barry, apparently you wouldn't know what a Communist was even if it kissed you on the cheek. Jacinda was in the Youth SOCIALIST Union. They are not communist and I suggest that you go and learn the difference.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-17492297747011087072014-10-23T17:57:44.353+13:002014-10-23T17:57:44.353+13:00From an ignorant (of how Labour 'works') o...From an ignorant (of how Labour 'works') outsider's point of view, I imagine whoever wins now will cause such a bloody fight for the next three years he will not win the next election and then the leader who will take over a 'levelled' party will be in a good position to win the treasury benches in six years.<br />I'm really interested in this guy you mention who thought Labour had achieved what it was created to achieve. I agree with that as has been said, and if that is true it is fundamental stuff.. The world has fundamentally changed I think, in the right's view for the better, and part of that has been achieved by the left. Well done. Look at the glass half full at least and then perhaps the new young left can achieve something new in due course?<br />So perhaps the new really successful Labour leader will be about 30 right now?<br />I know I'm a bore on this one but his or her first task will be to take about 7% off the Greens. After 18 years without power they surely have peaked and will decline, unless Labour let's them supplant it? At the next election Labour must instead eclipse the Greens, as the prospect of them having a big share of power was a significant reason Labour lost so badly this time. If they achieve that then people will see them as electable again.Charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9456324229024261682014-10-23T14:26:52.343+13:002014-10-23T14:26:52.343+13:00I too am curious as what what Michael means by Hel...I too am curious as what what Michael means by Helen Clarks toxic legacy?????pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-36530210756476586472014-10-23T13:43:38.443+13:002014-10-23T13:43:38.443+13:00..'Robertson and Ardern'.....
Yes - I can.....'Robertson and Ardern'.....<br /><br />Yes - I can see some logic in what Chris says, but I dont see it that way - and maybe thats our various biases - but even people with a bias get a vote!<br /><br />Robertson - apparently intelligent, can dress him self properly (or is dressed well by someone), homosexual, etc. Appeals to the gays (a Labour special interest group), Dogmatists, liberals.<br /><br />Ardern: said to be smart (not sure if thats possible if one is also leader of world young communists), from Auckland, has good looks and presents herself well. Not really a very good debater as has trouble addressing very negative questions/accusations. Said to appeal to Waitakere man and males in general, but in reality is the token female and appeals to feminists and other special interest groups - ie: dogmatists.<br /><br />As well - the idea that the caucus will vote for the deputy is a bit arrogant and sets the basis for caucus disunity. Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45024320613768971142014-10-23T13:25:08.656+13:002014-10-23T13:25:08.656+13:00Chris
An interesting post ....but not as interest...Chris<br /><br />An interesting post ....but not as interesting as the photo.<br /><br />For the last several years we've had two social democratic parties in this country (Labour and Green), distinguished more by their ideological and sociological roots than their policy positions, although the latter certainly aren't wholly identical.<br /><br />The resulting lack of identifiable focus might be one of the many reasons for the Left's current electoral malaise. <br /><br />It's also clear that neither of these parties is currently in a position to take the middle ground. And yet that ground should soon be there for the taking, as National succumbs to Third Term Syndrome, the economy sours and Winston Peters nears retirement age (assuming he's not immortal).<br /><br />A few months back, I recall you posting an item arguing that environmentalism now poses the most far-ranging and consistent critique of neo-liberalism.<br /><br />The logic of your position might be that the Greens are sensible to seek to position themselves as the leading party of the Left, leaving Labour to become the pale teal party of the Center. <br /><br />In tacking to the Center, Labour might also seek to sop up some of the "Blue Green" votes, which according to assorted right-wing polemicists, are being alienated by the Green Party's alleged left-wing extremism.<br /><br />Whether you can appeal to Blue Greens and also to Waitakere Man might, however, be a moot point.<br /><br />Meanwhile, I note that the excellent Mrs Turei has taken up Hone Harawira's proposals for ensuring hungry kids get fed.<br /><br />Could it be that Gracinda's teal-clad retreat from what little remains of Labour's attempts at ideological clarity, might actually give the Left as a whole more of that elusive ingredient, as well as a broader combined electoral appeal?Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64277616882906560872014-10-23T12:10:26.564+13:002014-10-23T12:10:26.564+13:00Helen Clark's toxic legacy?
FFS, that woman s...Helen Clark's toxic legacy?<br /><br />FFS, that woman saved New Zealand from becoming a third world country.<br /><br />Third world status is what happens when you see the only road to prosperity as allowing the ruling class to exploit the hell out the rest of us.<br /><br />That's what happens when the lions share of economic growth happens in the pockets of the already rich.<br /><br />That was the post-1990 strategy of the National Party up until Key (who diluted it a bit, keeping the same essential strategy, but doing it much slower and by stealth.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26330227598105154612014-10-23T09:32:04.596+13:002014-10-23T09:32:04.596+13:00Gleichschaltung (your spelling was wrong, Chris) m...Gleichschaltung (your spelling was wrong, Chris) meaning "coordination", "making the same", "bringing into line"), is a Nazi term for the process by which the Nazi regime successively established a system of totalitarian control and coordination over all aspects of society. Among the goals of this policy were to bring about adherence to a specific doctrine and way of thinking and to control as many aspects of life as possible. The apex of the Nazification of Germany was in the resolutions approved during the Nuremberg Rally of 1935, when the symbols of the Party and the State were fused and the German Jews were deprived of citizenship, paving the way for the Holocaust. (wGleichschaltung meaning "coordination", "making the same", "bringing into line"), is a Nazi term for the process by which the Nazi regime successively established a system of totalitarian control and coordination over all aspects of society. Among the goals of this policy were to bring about adherence to a specific doctrine and way of thinking and to control as many aspects of life as possible. The apex of the Nazification of Germany was in the resolutions approved during the Nuremberg Rally of 1935, when the symbols of the Party and the State were fused and the German Jews were deprived of citizenship, paving the way for the Holocaust.(Wikipedia)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90292242945124236342014-10-22T22:35:45.052+13:002014-10-22T22:35:45.052+13:00"If Labour is to survive this latest, catastr..."If Labour is to survive this latest, catastrophic, electoral defeat then it’s going to need a Stalin figure. Someone capable of restoring party unity – even at the cost of purging Labour of all dissent."<br /><br />Maybe - but is this really what the country needs. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2290889851411481502014-10-22T21:02:16.411+13:002014-10-22T21:02:16.411+13:00that bad huh? as a non member of the Labour Party ...that bad huh? as a non member of the Labour Party I don't see as yet that any of the candidates for leadership have the wide appeal needed to lead the left to a win in the next election....may I be proved wrong.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24061535929915348762014-10-22T19:17:41.920+13:002014-10-22T19:17:41.920+13:00Chris, given the toxic legacy that Helen Clark lef...Chris, given the toxic legacy that Helen Clark left behind her I do not think that this is something that should be emulated by Robertson. This pair is still an answer to the question that the bulk of voters are not asking.Michael Wyndhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12323632941060268210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-52875610456604830162014-10-22T18:47:00.374+13:002014-10-22T18:47:00.374+13:00Decaf soy latte at thatDecaf soy latte at thatunclemuzzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029935814520074813noreply@blogger.com