tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post1264831475881913536..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Expressions Of Hatred.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38342810812836696192015-10-10T08:51:41.836+13:002015-10-10T08:51:41.836+13:00I must confess jigsaw you leave me a little afraid...I must confess jigsaw you leave me a little afraid. You are so extreme right. Angry, self-interested, suspicious, dogmatic and authoritarian. I worry that people like you might one day be in charge of this country. You have an innate suspicion of ordinary people, to the point where you deny them any agency. You assume that they are just doing as they are told, as I said – being led around by the nose. And yes I called your opinions bullshit and drivel, and then I pointed out why they were. Using sources that know a great deal more about her life than you do. And using sources that gave her some credit for being aware of what went on around her. To you though, we are just puppets. <br />I still maintain that calling someone's opinions bullshit is a damn sight less abusive than calling an individual disgusting bitter or twisted. However, because you did this I have now replied in kind. And for the record, the world has judged "Strange Fruit" and you are in a distinct minority. No doubt you would much rather she sang songs with no political meaning at all.<br />I will not reply to you again on this thread, partly because Chris may well shut us down again, partly because I'm sick of your abuse.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-80744308208427832602015-10-09T17:11:46.495+13:002015-10-09T17:11:46.495+13:00No you are what I guess you will always remain, a ...No you are what I guess you will always remain, a illogical lefty ofay who wants to make political capital and use Billie Holiday even after her death-just disgusting. <br />Calling other people's opinions bullshit and drivel is about as far as your logic goes. Quoting stories like that about Billie is a waste of time as there are just as many in any other direct other direction that can be quoted-at best they are second-hand. Her life was a tale of self destruction caused by the people around her using her for their own purposes just as they used her with that song-just as you are using her memory. From that time onward she sang few if any medium tempo and up tempo songs and that was a shame as material like 'Miss Brown to You' while just a scrap of a song was a classic compared with 'Strange Fruit' but then you knew all of that didn't you. Not much you don't know is there?<br />I wouldn't say happy you were happy - smug certainly and abusive.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77665465408731160062015-10-08T17:05:32.089+13:002015-10-08T17:05:32.089+13:00His the difference between you and me jigsaw. I ca...His the difference between you and me jigsaw. I call your IDEAS drivel. You respond by "what a bitter and twisted INDIVIDUAL you are." In actual fact I'm quite a happy chap on the whole. But your ideas are still drivel. Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66689334558305288472015-10-08T16:41:43.843+13:002015-10-08T16:41:43.843+13:00Interesting jigsaw, if YOU knew anything about Bil...Interesting jigsaw, if YOU knew anything about Billie holiday, you would know that she was politically aware.<br /><br />"Holiday was also brave. It was her idea to record Strange Fruit, the febrile account of a southern lynching that became her most successful record, cutting the song (written by a white man) for a New York independent when her label refused to sanction its recording . At a time (1939) when “there was no chance the lynching of blacks would ever appear in a film, no matter how it was reported in newspapers”, its depiction in song became a cause célèbre."<br /><br />Your quote from Hammond's book only reinforces my point, she was politically aware, and determined to record the song. If he and presumably you don't like it and Columbia records didn't like it – tough – that puts you in a huge minority. But the main point is that you refused to allow her any agency at all. She was definitely aware of what she was doing, largely because she suffered from discrimination.<br /><br />"In 1944, a naval officer called her a nigger and, her eyes hot with tears, she smashed a beer bottle against a table and lunged at him with the serrated glass. A little while later, a friend spotted her wandering down 52nd Street and called out, "How are you doing, Lady Day?" Her reply was viciously blunt: "Well, you know, I'm still a nigger."<br /><br />I can't understand the rest of your post. Her voice was still brilliant when she recorded that song. The fact that it was wrecked by the 1950s is neither here nor there – completely beside the point. Did you just put it in to show off? And if you think my comment to you was nasty, it's probably because you've insulted someone who whatever her faults, was a much better person than you. I suspect you simply got offended because I called your post bullshit and drivel. I should have added insulting. But that's par for the course for you right-wingers, you never want to give any working class person at any credit for being aware of the problems surrounding them. I'm surprised you didn't say "she was being led by the nose by her union leadership." Oh, forgot you pretty much did.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-6951804950983187972015-10-08T09:53:15.965+13:002015-10-08T09:53:15.965+13:00GS- I doubt that you ever let facts spoil your poi...GS- I doubt that you ever let facts spoil your point of view but page 209 of John Hammond's book -' ...before she left Columbia however she (BIllie) did a bizarre and successful record 'Strange Fruit' and 'Fine and Mellow' for Commodore. Because Columbia felt that the lyrics of 'Strange Fruit' were too strong for the distributors to handle, particularly in the South........she was released to record with my full approval for Commodore. I never liked 'Strange Fruit' myself and urged Columbia to have it recorded elsewhere. In many ways I think the song hurt Billie as an artist, although there is no doubt that its shock value helped her career.'<br />So not only did Columbia not want to sell a record with those lyrics their artistic adviser(Hammond) wanted another company to record it. Hammond as you should know was on the board of the NAACP at that time.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-30932819336219794932015-10-08T09:37:27.903+13:002015-10-08T09:37:27.903+13:00You obviously have little real knowledge of Billie...You obviously have little real knowledge of Billie and her life and music and further your ability to twist statements and infect them with your own bile shows just what a bitter and twisted individual you are. She recorded quite a few things for Commodore which was a tiny label that began out of a record shop. The large record labels controlled everything as did the song writers in those days. This is of course the reason that she made popular so many songs that were not great and often had crap lyrics. Her ability to infuse these songs with real class was her gift. Strange fruit is not a great song-whatever the message. Of course there were lynchings going on in the southern states at the time. The world was then as it is now, full of injustice. If you know anything at ALL about Billie's personal life you will know that she was at that stage being increasingly influenced by various bastards who controlled her life through drugs and that the effect on her voice was showing more and more. By the early 1950s it was already wrecked and by the end of her life a mere croak. No I don't think that she was very politically aware-not in the way someone like Frank Newton or John Hammond were but then I doubt you read much around such topics.<br />You seem unable to resist inflicting your nastiness on the rest of us-mere discussion is somehow beyond you. <br />Happy to go in where you attempt to tell the rest of us your propaganda. You turn small scraps of truth into huge distortions - and with such ease.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4452298809400175612015-10-07T19:36:49.494+13:002015-10-07T19:36:49.494+13:00Again jigsaw, you rush in where others fear to tre...Again jigsaw, you rush in where others fear to tread. Quite rightly. Billie holiday tried to get Columbia records to put the record out, but they were too scared of adverse reactions in the Southern States. So she basically had to go to a small label if she wanted to get the song issued. In no sense was she used by anyone. That song was inspired by an actual photograph of a lynching, which although they were on the decline by 1937 or so when it was written, was still going on fairly regularly in the South. Something you somehow forgot to mention. It was her most popular song pretty much for ever, selling over 1 million copies. She sang it even though she was afraid of retaliation from whites. Because she thought it was important. That bastion of the left Time Magazine called it the song of the century. Christ you've only got to watch it on you tube to see how powerful it was. You seem to think that somehow she was not politically aware? That's typical of you right-wing people, you think that somehow working class people can't think for themselves. God what utter bullshit and drivel you write sometimes.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-78866451816768614522015-10-07T19:03:43.311+13:002015-10-07T19:03:43.311+13:00Fascinating watching rational beings coming down s...Fascinating watching rational beings coming down so hard on words of one man while the war brouhaha overseas drives me mad. The endless stories of pitiless fighting and destruction is a fail for the human race. <br /><br />If Tariana feels Chris can be used in some program to reach out to the young, just bow to her greater wisdom without nasty sneers if it doesn't show immediate results. It is not an easy message because competitiveness, use of power and strength, self-centredness, anger and violence are everyday themes of present NZ. greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-51466601576525074472015-10-07T16:06:24.928+13:002015-10-07T16:06:24.928+13:00The incredible thing for me was the support of the...The incredible thing for me was the support of these supposedly influential Maori women and yet you managed to write the whole article without even mentioning their endorsement of Brown or the double standards that are shown. By the way Billie Holiday would never have been allowed into New Zealand either at least after about 1950 and 'Strange Fruit' was totally atypical of her output-recorded for a tiny Commodore record label it represents her being used by the left-not unusual.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24654487786504062712015-10-07T14:23:14.794+13:002015-10-07T14:23:14.794+13:00Chris, I heard a far more cogent explanation of ma...Chris, I heard a far more cogent explanation of mass shootings by gunmen than "hate". And it is far more frightening: it is narcissism.<br /><br />Watch Anne Manne: Epidemic of Narcissism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBO7B1RSR8A<br /><br />In this talk she recount how Breivik after shooting 80 people and showing no remorse was only interested in a minor cut for which he insisted the police give him a band aid. It was all about him down to the most minor detail. In prison all he does is complain about things that he thinks he is entitled to.<br /><br />On the hate thing, I have listened to rap lyrics for years, and the thing which stands out is "I" "me" and offensive labels for anybody who is not "I" "me". Maybe Brown does not hate, maybe it is just low empathy narcissism. Hate may not even enter the equation, everything that is not Mr Brown being mere untermensch, not worhty of bothering his huge self esteem.<br /><br /><br />Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-36692484060863702812015-10-07T13:15:04.798+13:002015-10-07T13:15:04.798+13:00Yes Charles, his words do condemn him. But his wor...Yes Charles, his words do condemn him. But his words are how he makes money, so he's not going to change that without some strong incentive. I don't think he should be allowed into the country for this reason, because until you start hitting these guys in their pockets you're not going to get much joy on the rehabilitation front :-). It still allows for the possibility he is repentant. But I'm not a mind reader, and I can't actually tell from the photos :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86970598248428026082015-10-07T12:15:30.919+13:002015-10-07T12:15:30.919+13:00The photos are certainly evocative. The white kid...The photos are certainly evocative. The white kid looks as if he is trying to make himself grotesque and the brown kid looks as if he is trying to appeal to disaffected youth who will buy his rap or whatever.<br /><br />Dame Tariana Turia says Chris Brown should be allowed to perform because he is prepared to talk about his problems and how he is trying to get in control of himself. Her opinion should count. She has been a dedicated worker with young people for years.<br /><br />http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/285587/dame-tariana-turia-gets-behind-chris-brown%27s-nz-tour<br />He would like to come here; he's prepared to give a particular message to our young people. Our young people listen to people like Chris Brown. They don't listen to me.<br />"I mean, I was involved in family violence [prevention] probably for a good 12 years of my time in Parliament. All the programmes that we put out there, nothing changes."<br /><br />Probably if he comes, he will do some good and also speakers can influence him to change his language about women. Why should National be prosy and tight-lipped wanting to bar him, ignore him. That's because the RW white upper classes do that with all social problems. Oh dear, have you heard the news, the natives are revolting! Aren't we lucky we aren't like them. Showing understanding for Chris, coupled with an earnest and honest desire from him to speak against violence and how to control the 'red rage', would produce more deterrence amongst his male fans, and female, than banning him. <br />greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-68102347562292987962015-10-06T22:10:09.718+13:002015-10-06T22:10:09.718+13:00I think you are right GS. Photos lie too often.
Bu...I think you are right GS. Photos lie too often.<br />But I think Chris is right about Brown. His words alone condemn him.Charles Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59710844862226827602015-10-06T22:00:13.008+13:002015-10-06T22:00:13.008+13:00@Guerilla Surgeon - You nail it exactly.
And I ad...@Guerilla Surgeon - You nail it exactly.<br /><br />And I add that Lincoln's speculation is utter nonsense, pasta only knows what it adds to the discussion: exactly nothing.<br /><br />Richard Christienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90940623098595866932015-10-06T20:31:07.763+13:002015-10-06T20:31:07.763+13:00Anonymous - since when did the leader of a party h...Anonymous - since when did the leader of a party have to make a statement on anything and everything and not leave it to a spokesperson? I think we can take it that if Nanaia Mahuta has expressed criticism, her colleagues are likely to be in agreement.JanMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-72736346250302213742015-10-06T17:26:56.875+13:002015-10-06T17:26:56.875+13:00Guerilla Surgeon, you are wrong, it is Chris Brown...Guerilla Surgeon, you are wrong, it is Chris Brown, he is a good looking young man, it was not a confirmation bias, it was the article and its words that was the confirmation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-5124225513021733672015-10-06T16:16:16.790+13:002015-10-06T16:16:16.790+13:00GS: you can't tell from photos, must meet the ...GS: you can't tell from photos, must meet the person in person! Doesn't show up in photos.Bushbaptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09657695593141243969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82691981817584238492015-10-06T13:55:40.617+13:002015-10-06T13:55:40.617+13:00A good article, Chris Brown is a monster who is us...A good article, Chris Brown is a monster who is using his entertainment fame to pretend contrition to the general public, why ?, because it works on a section of any community and Brown and his ilk escape from the facts. The government get my whole hearted support to stop this guy from coming to NZ. Naina Mahuta from Labour has also been critical of his proposed visit. As far as I know Labours leader has been stum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82150282619798578142015-10-06T13:30:17.990+13:002015-10-06T13:30:17.990+13:00There are various photographs of these people. How...There are various photographs of these people. How on earth you can tell that there is nothing behind their eyes, or anything else from those photographs just by looking at the faces I don't know. I suspect though that it's something like confirmation bias. It sort of spoils the rest of the column – at least for me, whose has been arguing about violence and access to firearms on American websites for far too long now. Cheap trick sorry.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.com