tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post2140292539715315537..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: The Komissariat Strikes BackChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-78053578688320089592009-12-15T20:59:45.121+13:002009-12-15T20:59:45.121+13:00Chris
Have I misunderstood you or are you actual...Chris <br /><br />Have I misunderstood you or are you actually comparing New Zealand's identity politics liberals to the Red Brigades?<br /><br />What next? Is Russell Norman really Ulrike Meinhoff in drag?<br /><br />VictorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-73140585074658960962009-12-13T22:39:42.992+13:002009-12-13T22:39:42.992+13:00What I meant by "working" was that Goff&...<i>What I meant by "working" was that Goff's speech was generating so much opposition from both the Komissariat and the National Party-supporting news media that it was clearly striking a chord with people hostile to both.</i><br /><br />"People oppose me so I must be right"? There's a very obvious alternative hypothesis there.<br /><br /><i>The ideological re-orientation of a political party is not something to be achieved in the short interval between public opinion surveys.</i><br /><br />But apparently something which can be achieved in the short interval between blog posts, at least enough to judge whether it is "working" or not. Interesting.<br /><br />Personally, I prefer to judge claims of political success against the metric that matters: public opinion. It's not "poll driven fruitcake"-ery, it's simple empiricism (you know, being interested in the Real World, rather than some Faith-Based "reality"). And on that. the first piece of rela empirical evidence shows that pandering to racists is worth <a href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3155617/Goff-makes-gains-in-latest-poll" rel="nofollow">a 4% uptick on a poll that was almost certain to rise anyway</a> (National having been at a historic high, and Labour at a historic low in the previous poll). Worth it?Idiot/Savanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993069909613708957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4127911267573339242009-12-13T22:31:28.435+13:002009-12-13T22:31:28.435+13:00Jeez, Julie. Do the math. If there are only 20 win...<i>Jeez, Julie. Do the math. If there are only 20 winnable places on the Party List, and thanks to a deal struck between the Rainbow Sector, The Affiliates' Council and the Women's Council only LGBT, Unionist and female candidates make it up, might that not be at the expense of candidates who aren't LGBT, unionists or women? Huh? Ya think?</i><br /><br />Participate or perish! If people who aren't who aren't LGBT, unionists or women make up a majority of the party, but lose because they are out-organised by those groups, they have no-one to blame but themselves.Idiot/Savanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993069909613708957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-55584380845029800902009-12-11T11:34:29.698+13:002009-12-11T11:34:29.698+13:00Julie's on to something when she implicitly qu...Julie's on to something when she implicitly questions the widespread belief that working people are inherently socially/morally conservative and authoritarian. And, indeed, that the dear old middle-classes are wonderfully liberal, tolerant and enlightened. (I'm not suggesting you necessarily hold these views, Chris).<br /><br />Anyone have any evidence that this is so ? (apart from "It's common knowledge"). I grew up in a leftist blue-collar family that also happened to hold very liberal views (members were involved in the equal pay campaign, sympathy for homosexual law reform, marched against the Vietnam War as early as 1965 and against Springbok tours of 1976 and 1981. My parents were never smacked by their working-class parents and neither were we).<br /><br />Was our family atypical of blue-collars ? I don't know but - having recently researched the demographic breakdowns of 1970s/1980s polls on various social/moral/foreign affairs issues - I can say that class was nowhere near as important (in determining liberal and conservative positions) as people (particularly the middle-class commentariat) would have us believe.<br /><br />I suspect this idea of "deeply conservative working-class battlers" actually describes, first and foremost, the classic "working-class Tory", voting against their economic interest due to conservative/deferential values. Labour-voting blue-collars, I'd suggest are a little more varied in their social/moral attitudes. Similarly, I'd suggest the middle-classes are riven by a range of attitudinal differences.markusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-14065336431073633322009-12-11T09:32:34.259+13:002009-12-11T09:32:34.259+13:00Chris - in respect of using "Labour" ins...Chris - in respect of using "Labour" instead of "rainbow" - the fault of late night typing on the wrong side of the world. <br /><br />I fail to see how it could have been Freudian, unless it was my long ago choice of joining Labour instead of the Alliance coming to the surface. Could you give me a hint?<br /><br />If you wish to say that Labour in the 00s should have done more on the "economic" side and less on the "liberal" side of progressive politics, then I have some sympathy for that argument and I did at the time, too.<br /><br />Rubbishing the liberal record, or drawing out supposed but not really existing splits, doesn't chime with the mood inside most of the Labour Party. It might make a few feel better but it certainly isn't the way to get us back into government - any more than pretending carrying on just as we were when we lost would be, either, I might add.Jordan Carterhttp://justleft.org.nz/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18741271778456347442009-12-10T16:58:39.933+13:002009-12-10T16:58:39.933+13:00Don't think very highly of the working class d...Don't think very highly of the working class do you Chris? Where's your evidence that it was predominantly working class Labour voters who were opposed to the reform of s59? And apparently working class people are easily manipulated by the petty bourgeoisie (forgive my spelling) in the interests of the bosses too. <br /><br />I share your frustration that Labour was not prepared to take on the employers more. I'm not sure however that it was the homosexuals, trade unionists and feminists within Labour who were dampening down moves to reinstate the broad right to strike. In fact those who are generally considered to be more rightward within Labour are predominantly people like Clayton Cosgrove, George Hawkins, and Goff himself, who don't really operate within sector groups like Rainbow Labour... <br /><br />Are you seriously suggesting that only those who come from manual work backgrounds are suitable for Labour MPs, as that seems to be what you are implying in your last bit. <br /><br />Not sure if you are aware of this Chris, but bull fights generally end badly for the bull.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-72677434205044776422009-12-10T16:15:13.752+13:002009-12-10T16:15:13.752+13:00Chris,
Labour supported the s59 legislation bec...Chris, <br /><br /> Labour supported the s59 legislation because it had a real and immediate need for Green support in other matters. Failure to give this (and other small contextual issues like MMP and geopolitics) due recognition seems to leave you asking "why did Labour do this?" and constantly answering "internal power blocs".<br /><br /> <br />Sooner or later there will be a real back-room leadership challenge in Labour - but you run the risk of being the boy who cried "conspiracy".<br /><br />As to the 2011 election, if Labour lose, Goff will probably be gone and the nats will crow about "mandates" and "public support", but frankly I think a good proportion of the swing will rest entirely on whether the ABs win the cup that October ;)AWickennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-12644125661790211932009-12-10T15:24:50.270+13:002009-12-10T15:24:50.270+13:00But, in nine years of power, they were never willi...<i>But, in nine years of power, they were never willing to wear the wrath of the employers by restoring the right of workers to strike over social, economic and political issues.</i><br /><br />How about this: in nine years in power, Labour enacted working for families and raised the top tax rate, but was never willing to wear the wrath of social conservatives by passing a proper marriage-equality law. <br /><br />You can slice it either way, but it seems to me that Clark's government eschewed radical reforms in both the economic or the social sphere. If anything, I'd say its increase in welfare spending and savings provisions have outweighed the social legislation. Either way, you haven't proven at all that the two sets of aspirations are mutually exclusive, and indeed I'd like to have some indication - any! - that Prime Minister Phil Goff would be any closer than my orthodox Marxist heart than Clark was.Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20121722776320862752009-12-10T14:57:04.028+13:002009-12-10T14:57:04.028+13:00Such a dtermined matador, Julie!
Okay, here's...Such a dtermined matador, Julie!<br /><br />Okay, here's a quick one. <br /><br />Labour's caucus was quite prepared to wear the fury of their working-class supporters rather than allow a conscience vote on Sue Bradford's s59 legislation.<br /><br />Staunch!<br /><br />But, in nine years of power, they were never willing to wear the wrath of the employers by restoring the right of workers to strike over social, economic and political issues.<br /><br />A centre-left government should have had no difficulty in (as you say) doing both. And yet, in choosing between them, Labour MPs opted for a social reform that was driven by a small minority of middle-class campaigners, over a change that would have restored real power to working-class people and their unions.<br /><br />And that's really the only point I'm making Julie. That the Komissariat consistently privileges the concerns of middle-class reformers, while evincing deeply conflicted attitudes towards empowering working people.<br /><br />Could it be that, when you analyse where the Komissariat actually works in the modern capitalist state, it is precisely in those jobs that involve managing the working-class: teachers, social workers, probation officers, counsellors, psychiatrists, doctors, civil servants, and - yes - even trade union officials.<br /><br />Just a thought.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-19023192506253698102009-12-10T14:21:34.472+13:002009-12-10T14:21:34.472+13:00Social justice is at the heart of socially liberal...Social justice is at the heart of socially liberal causes like an end to homophobia, pay equity for women, etc. And social justice should be at the heart of any future centre-left (or, dare I hope, left!) government. I think you're setting up a false dichotomy Chris, and when I've asked you for examples of how they are at odds you've failed to deliver the goods. I'm starting to think that it's less than you won't answer than that you can't answer.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4295596650462740922009-12-10T10:35:44.582+13:002009-12-10T10:35:44.582+13:00Chris: I am trying to get my head around the curre...Chris: I am trying to get my head around the current flurry of feathers in the left wing blogs. I take it that the people you call "commissars" and "the liberal left" are people who you suspect of putting narrow interests ahead of broader ones, and jockeying for positions from which to do so. Which, if you are right, renders the left irrelevant to those who don't share their interests, and provides fodder for those apt to cry "PC" and "nanny state" from their columns and editorials. <br /><br />As I have said before, the liberal path is an easy default - it evokes derisive cartoons but doesn't really rock the boat, and readily reduces the debate to two middleclass voices arguing about what to serve for lunch and who to invite, with the gardener being excluded in both accounts. <br /><br />That said, if we are to win an election any time soon, we need to discover and build on our common ground, which in the end is social justice, and the good of our citizens, whatever sort of left we think we are. <br /><br />And in fact, if we win an election under Phil Goff, it will probably involve liberals, workers and the productive business sector batting for the same team. While the mainstream media did not, from what I saw, pick up on it, Phil's speeches around the time of the controversial one seemed designed to drive a wedge between the financial and productive supporters of National (projected changes to reserve bank act) and the elite and working class supporters of the Maori party. If I am right, he would have been well-advised to leave Hone out of it - while it is true that a Maori politician should be held to the same standards as any other, this did provide his enemies with a red herring.Olwynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39279942257165512392009-12-10T09:58:58.376+13:002009-12-10T09:58:58.376+13:00It wasn't "society" that decided it ...<i>It wasn't "society" that decided it "had had enough of that crap", Giovanni, but a tiny, self-righteous and ultimately murderous minority of ultra-Left intellectuals, and an equally small group of Right-wing power-brokers and killers.</i><br /><br />I think you'll find your timeline's a tad off, comrade Trotter. The Communist Party had its best result in the European Elections of 1984, just after the death of Berlinguer, well and truly after the year of lead were over. Only at that point it started slowly bleeding voters, in spite of continuing the policies of Berlinguer under Natta. It has in fact always insisted - even after it abandoned its revolutionary ideas - not to concede an inch to the liberal left, and is to this day more socially conservative than the National Party of New Zealand. Its results at the polls over the last twenty years have been disastrous, even when it was gifted victory by the most improbable Right-Wing coalitions it managed to crumble in time for the next round of elections. It is currently a complete shambles. Although, I guess it is so organically, in a Gramscian sense... (God, Antonio must be spinning faster than usual today.)<br /><br /><i>Left-wing terror inevitably bred Right-wing terror - the latter's "strategy of tension" putting paid to any chance of a successful re-drawing of the rules of democratic-socialist engagement in the Capitalist West.</i><br /><br />I know it's a threadjack, but this cannot be allowed to stand: you've got it completely backwards. The historical compromise was mooted precisely as a response to terrorism, and right-wing terrorism predated left-wing terrorism (one could go as far back as Portella, 1947, but even being charitable the first event in the series is the Piazza Fontana massacre of 1969). The Brigate Rosse bought into the strategy of tension, not the other way around.Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22812180110495478012009-12-10T09:43:06.913+13:002009-12-10T09:43:06.913+13:00Well, well, well "Giovanni", that's ...Well, well, well "Giovanni", that's a very interesting comment. <br /><br />I'm guessing you're relying (and probably quite correctly) on the readers of this blog not knowing very much about the political history of Post-War Italy. <br /><br />Anyone unaware of what happened in Italy - especially on the Left of that country's politics - in the mid-to-late 1970s will probably read your words and think: "Aha, another telling blow struck against the arch-reactionary Chris Trotter!" <br /><br />But, how wrong they would be.<br /><br />The mid-to-late 1970s was a tragic period for the Italian Left. On the cusp of being drawn into government by the courageous and generous Christian Democrat, Aldo Moro, the Communist Party of Italy (PCI) was robbed of what was to have been its "historic compromise" with Italian capitalism by a combination of left-wing and right-wing terror.<br /><br />If readers of this blog really want to understand how much damage a reckless "Komissariat" can inflict on a nation, they need only study the history of the "Red Brigade".<br /><br />These were the far-Left "revolutionaries" who, terrified at what the "Eurocommunism" of the PCI's leader, Enrico Berlinguer, might achieve for the Italian people (thereby rendering their own ultra-Left perscriptions irrelevant) kidnapped and murdered Aldo Moro - dumping his body mid-way between the headquarters of the PCI and the Christian Democrats.<br /><br />Left-wing terror inevitably spawned Right-wing terror - the latter's "strategy of tension" putting paid to any chance of a successful re-drawing of the rules of democratic-socialist engagement in the Capitalist West.<br /><br />It wasn't "society" that decided it "had had enough of that crap", Giovanni, but a tiny, self-righteous, and ultimately murderous minority of ultra-Left intellectuals, and an equally small number of right-wing power-brokers and killers.<br /><br />What is "despairingly sad", comrade, is that some people still try to present this kind of political madness as some sort of blueprint for "progressive" politics.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66631532776155919722009-12-10T08:52:10.540+13:002009-12-10T08:52:10.540+13:00"A powerful Labour leader with ambitions to c..."A powerful Labour leader with ambitions to construct a stronger, more "organic" (in the Gramscian sense) relationship with the economically radical, but socially-conservative New Zealand working-class, would pose a deadly threat to the power-bases of both Robertson and Little."<br /><br />That's a terrific strategy, if your aim is to lead the Italian Communist party to electoral victory in 1975. That was the party that expelled Pier Paolo Pasolini for being gay and systematically marginalised its feminists. And it was doing well in the polls, it really was, until society decided it had had enough of that crap. The idea that you can somehow resurrect that project thirty years later and still call yourself a progressive would be laughable if it wasn't so despairingly sad.Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-80369744151134925272009-12-10T07:34:41.724+13:002009-12-10T07:34:41.724+13:00Jordan: I think you mean LGBT - not Labour. Teensy...Jordan: I think you mean LGBT - not Labour. Teensy Freudian-slip there comrade ;-)<br /><br />And to the rest of you: I've just checked back through this thread to reassure myself that at no time have I offered anything other than hypothetical responses to questions posed by Grant, Jordan and Julie. Unfortunately, these have been wrongly construed as statements of fact.<br /><br />So, will all you busy little picadors and matadors kindly reserve your lances and swords for another bull - or at least another arena.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20234721653726051502009-12-09T23:48:07.489+13:002009-12-09T23:48:07.489+13:00"this isn't a POLS tutorial"
But wh..."this isn't a POLS tutorial"<br /><br />But who's just been schooled in fact-checking?<br /><br />AWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-49347625041028297572009-12-09T22:13:06.025+13:002009-12-09T22:13:06.025+13:00Chris - the problem is that me and most of my coll...Chris - the problem is that me and most of my colleagues in the RL sector would advance a progressive left wing candidate before we'd advance a less progressive right wing candidate who happened to be Labour.<br /><br />IE the social democratic politics of candidates tends to come first.<br /><br />Others here have made the point as well and have pointed out the numbers of what actually happened. I just think you are off the mark.Jordan Carterhttp://www.justleft.org.nz/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28600333506517936092009-12-09T20:53:01.360+13:002009-12-09T20:53:01.360+13:00Rachel, you forgot the list rankings. (Just kiddin...Rachel, you forgot the list rankings. (Just kidding!) Actually, from my own perspective, it looks pretty convincing.<br /><br />Julie, it's just been too long a day, and this isn't a POLS tutorial.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39603811142287834152009-12-09T20:47:53.524+13:002009-12-09T20:47:53.524+13:00The analysis offered by Chris is too concerned to ...The analysis offered by Chris is too concerned to find social, economic and political blocs, factions, strata etc and identify conflicts between them. It is looking for things that aren't there. But I sympathise, because one of the frustrating things about New Zealand society is that in spite of its unequal economy it is not especially polarised and so defies these sorts of attempts at theoretically structured analysis of 'clashing forces' which can reassuringly steer left-wing strategy. I guess Chris would argue that moderate Labour is largely responsible for that deradicalisation, but if it is the damage was done about 70 years ago, not in the social liberal era. <br /><br />If the nationhood speech were given a re-run I would like the stress on a 'poor Maori/rich Maori' divide emphasized. I think it is legitimate for a Labour leader to ask who the Maori Party is representing in class terms, although equally I have always felt it is important for Labour to accept the Maori Party's success with good grace. This is the stress within the speech Chris seems to support. But the media coverage seemed to stress the Maori/Pakeha divide.Patrick Hinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8068789813909803152009-12-09T20:08:50.319+13:002009-12-09T20:08:50.319+13:00Done. Interestingly enough, none from Rainbow. The...Done. Interestingly enough, none from Rainbow. There blows your argument.<br /><br />3/8 are women. Still less than the general population.<br /><br />Oh and let's look at those electorate seats. All white males bar one.<br /><br />The whole point of the list process is to increase diversity within Parliament, a la MMP.<br /><br />For someone who considers themselves a political analyst you're showing a disturbing trend to ignore the actual evidence and numbers, despite the fact that you damn well know all this and don't need a rank and file member to point out the inaccuracies within your rhetoric.<br /><br />I used to respect you Chris, now, I'm really not so sure....Rachel B-M.<br /><br />Jacinda Ardern (woman)<br />Carol Beaumont (woman, union)<br />Kelvin Davis (maori)<br />Raymond Huo <br />Stuart Nash<br />Rajen Prasad<br />Carmel Sepuloni (woman)<br />Phil TwyfordAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64286462546622799522009-12-09T17:33:01.079+13:002009-12-09T17:33:01.079+13:00Horse-trading is not wholesale "let's shu...Horse-trading is not wholesale "let's shut the hetero white men out", which is what you are implying it is. My perception, as an outsider but keen observer of the machinations of the Labour Party, is that groups within the membership will pick usually one candidate that they want to get up the list into a winnable spot. They'll support them. They'll lobby for them with those on the selection committee. And that's about it. No nefarious master plan to keep other people out, but instead a positive focus on getting their person in. <br /><br />And you still haven't answered my query, which I'll ask now for the third time:<br />I'd really like you to answer how the policies and people that the Rainbow Sector support are opposed to the values of the Labour Party membership at large and/or the broader Left.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15510203714243711672009-12-09T17:08:01.129+13:002009-12-09T17:08:01.129+13:00Rachel, I'd be interested to see that list min...Rachel, I'd be interested to see that list minus the electorate MPs - and with the remaining List MPs rankings alongside their names.<br /><br />Julie, what do you think "horse-trading" is exactly?<br /><br />Anon, enough division in Labour this week without me opening that particular can of worms!Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-55688354464970462412009-12-09T16:21:38.705+13:002009-12-09T16:21:38.705+13:00Chris that latest comment requires fisking. Here ...Chris that latest comment requires fisking. Here are the newest Labour MPs, and I've tagged those who would be strongly recognised as women, union (as part of the affiliates) and rainbow.<br /><br />Worth pointing out that 4/14 of the newbies were women. That's 29%. <br /><br />I don't think I need to spell out to you how crap your argument on this point is....Rachel B-M<br /><br />Jacinda Ardern (woman)<br />Carol Beaumont (woman, union)<br />Brendon Burns<br />Clare Curran (woman)<br />Kelvin Davis (maori)<br />Chris Hipkins<br />Raymond Huo <br />Iain Lees-Galloway<br />Stuart Nash<br />Rajen Prasad<br />Grant Robertson (rainbow)<br />Carmel Sepuloni (woman)<br />Phil Twyford<br />David ShearerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86736979818524988662009-12-09T16:20:47.118+13:002009-12-09T16:20:47.118+13:00Chris, it sounds like you've been talking to s...Chris, it sounds like you've been talking to someone inside the NZLP that resents all the sectors- come on then, name your source if you're so sure of what's going on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-42673097608374749142009-12-09T15:59:05.734+13:002009-12-09T15:59:05.734+13:00But that hasn't actually happened Chris - no d...But that hasn't actually happened Chris - no deal has been made and no outcome of that nature has occurred. Of course there is horse-trading in a list selection process, but nothing of the scale you are alleging. In fact IIRC the highest ranked list candidate at the last election, who wasn't in a safe seat, was in fact a heterosexual Pakeha male intellectual, namely Dr Michael Cullen. <br /><br />You seem to be seeing conspiracy where there is none. If that's the best example you can muster, something hypothetical, then that's pretty poor evidence in the Case Against Identity Politics Within Labour.<br /><br />I'd really like you to answer how the policies and people that the Rainbow Sector support are opposed to the values of the Labour Party membership at large and/or the broader Left.<br /><br />Upthread you reckoned all the workers at a rally were brown and all the union officials white, when that wasn't the case, but now you are counselling others on the need to learn to count. Irony much?Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.com