tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post2289590424117656160..comments2024-03-29T03:41:12.499+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: One Picture's Worth.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-75844900938467508462015-10-28T20:39:47.256+13:002015-10-28T20:39:47.256+13:00What an enjoyable read this post is, Chris - a rea...What an enjoyable read this post is, Chris - a real pearl.<br /><br />I admire your ability to stand above the seething masses and seek the silver lining.<br /><br />Whilst I do not share your vision of Trudeau the Messiah (I see his hand as a two fingered salute), I find your descriptive narrative compelling, and particularly beyond Trudeau.<br /><br />Unfortunately pearls are not universally appreciated, and sometimes not at all. (Not the pearl's fault.)Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59454811000617780402015-10-28T15:40:37.037+13:002015-10-28T15:40:37.037+13:00http://www.vox.com/2015/4/24/8489065/politics-nega...http://www.vox.com/2015/4/24/8489065/politics-negative-partisanship-fear<br /><br />interesting :)Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-47629229246322816372015-10-28T13:25:43.285+13:002015-10-28T13:25:43.285+13:00And let's face it, the concept of radical has ...And let's face it, the concept of radical has changed so much in the last 20 or 30 years that policies which would have seemed quite centrist in the 1950s are now seen as extreme left by many. Ridiculous of course but what can you do, the centre has shifted in many people's minds.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-44827086840845712062015-10-28T12:51:40.680+13:002015-10-28T12:51:40.680+13:00Quite right Chris. The criticisms levelled at Labo...Quite right Chris. The criticisms levelled at Labour by the Right show that they must have missed those years or were asleep throughout it. As I have pointed out before, Labour must go to the same sources for finance as the Gnats do and, as the old saying goes: He who pays the piper, calls the tune. Until they get an alternative source, nothing will change.Bushbaptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09657695593141243969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-23481925831377904262015-10-28T11:55:14.168+13:002015-10-28T11:55:14.168+13:00What's the point having bottom lines if it'...What's the point having bottom lines if it's all going to be passed with or without them? I thought a bottom line was a principled stand? If the tpp is passed regardless, that doesn't mean you change your principles does it? What are labors principles now? I'm so confused ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-51015160604567069092015-10-28T10:50:34.258+13:002015-10-28T10:50:34.258+13:00Little did say "The TPP is here now. There...Little did say "The TPP is here now. There's no backing out of it." "If it means we end up breaching the TPP, we will scrap that out with the other TPP partners," ... "It might be confrontational but it will be the only way we can fight it out."<br /><br />Thankfully, even though the text of the agreement is still secret, the Office of the United States Trade Representative states clearly stated what everyone already knows. that: <br /><br /><i>"The Final Provisions chapter defines the way the TPP will enter into force, the way in which it can be amended, the rules that establish the process for other States or separate customs territories to join the TPP in the future, the means by which Parties can withdraw"</i> <br /><br />Clearly the deal can be backed out of... but Labour obviously doesn't want to do so. Will Labour also say "The Health and Safety Reform Bill is here now. There's no backing out of it."? <br /><br />Its difficult to understand what Labour is actually prepared to back-out of when the last "non-negotiable" "bottom lines" clearly don't mean anything at all.Lozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12064567381918975446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84203698786964556032015-10-28T10:21:18.947+13:002015-10-28T10:21:18.947+13:00@manfred : Can you point to a link, video or artic...@manfred : Can you point to a link, video or article which shows that Mr Little actually used the word 'flout' as you claim? He didn't, as far as I know. <br /><br />From googling a news item from stuff written by (VERNON SMALL, SAM SACHDEVA AND JO MOIR on October 13 2015), this is what it says: 'Labour would stick to ban on foreign house buyers despite TPPA': A Labour-led government would "scrap out" issues, like its plan to ban foreign house buyers, with other countries in the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) free trade deal, Labour leader Andrew Little says.<br /><br />Labour remained committed to introducing laws to restrict the sale of houses to non-resident foreign buyers, Little said after Prime Minister John Key confirmed that would not be possible under the 12-country deal.<br /><br />"If it means we end up breaching the TPP, we will scrap that out with the other TPP partners," Little said on Tuesday. Labour would present its case to a committee set up under the TPPA rules and argue it out, Little said.<br /><br />"It might be confrontational but it'll be the only way we can fight it out."<br /> Some countries in the TPPA already had restrictions on house sales and he would "point that right back" at them.<br /><br />He said the suggestion Labour could instead impose a 100 per cent stamp duty on foreign buyers under the TPP was a "sidewind - a fudge". Little and Trade Minister Tim Groser met on Monday evening to discuss the provisions of the TPPA in further detail, after the 12-nation free trade agreement was signed last week.<br /><br />Little refused to say whether Labour supported or opposed the TPPA, saying it was impossible to say whether the TPPA was beneficial to NZ without seeing the full text.<br /><br />But the TPPA was "here and is a reality". "The question now for us is what happens when we are in government."<br /><br />Little earlier told Radio New Zealand the party still had a number of unanswered questions about the deal, but was unlikely to pull out of the agreement if it gained power at the next election.<br /><br />"Although any party has the ability on six months' notice to walk away from the agreement, from New Zealand's point of view, that'd be a pretty serious call to make. "I think it is unlikely: we've got what we've got, we're now committed to it because the National Government has made us committed to it, [and] we will deal with that when we are in government."<br /><br />It's not the gold standard the Government claimed of it. It is equally not the fearsome monster I think was claimed of it by others as well."<br /><br />Asked about Labour's reaction to other countries breaching TPPA deals that favoured New Zealand, Little drew a distinction between issues involving free trade and market access and those things that limited a Government's ability to act in the best interest of citizens.CPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-14250897081814814982015-10-28T10:07:07.471+13:002015-10-28T10:07:07.471+13:00To: Manfred.
No, I'm not expecting Labour to ...To: Manfred.<br /><br />No, I'm not expecting Labour to be a party of the radical left, merely a party that refrains from making-up and changing policy on the hoof.<br /><br />Without the check of the party organisation and its democratic processes, there is nothing to prevent the parliamentary wing of the party embarking on another exercise like the Rogernomics disaster.<br /><br />Nor is it possible for an ordinary Labour supporter, like myself, to have any idea of the party's overall direction if the leader of the party is at liberty to ditch agreed policy positions at will. <br /><br />The word "flout" was not used by Andrew, but he accepted it when it was suggested to him that "flouting" was exactly what he was proposing to do.<br /><br />This is the real treachery: that what the party says, and what it does, are no longer reconcilable either before or after general elections. The idea of presenting a manifesto to the electorate and receiving a mandate to govern no longer appears to have much purchase upon the consciences of Labour politicians.<br /><br />Some may say that this situation is unavoidable and without remedy. But, the moment the voters accept that their decisions can no longer find any reflection in the policies of the party they voted for, then democracy itself has become a sham.<br /><br />You may be comfortable with that, Manfred, but I am not - and never will be.<br /><br />Oh, and BTW, you're wrong about Labour never being a radical left-wing party. Between 1935 and 1940, Labour was very radical indeed. There was also much that was radical about Labour's industrial development programme 1957-1960. The same can be said of Labour's foreign policy and social reforms 1972-1975. <br /><br />What steered Labour away from its left-wing heritage was Roger Douglas's economic programme 1984-1990. As noted above, these were policies that were forced on Labour from above. The very thing I take Andrew to task for in my postings.<br /><br />And rightly so.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-80459892736515454172015-10-28T08:41:54.127+13:002015-10-28T08:41:54.127+13:00A small correction
The Norman replacement doesn...A small correction<br /> The Norman replacement doesn't need to come from Labour.And probably won't.<br />D J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13028734739672297182015-10-28T08:23:11.903+13:002015-10-28T08:23:11.903+13:00Hi Chris
My partner says the TPPA should be thro...Hi Chris<br /> My partner says the TPPA should be thrown out because it's secrete, and that's reason aplenty, and I agree.<br /> There are a at least 6 or 8 Labour MPs much more able, qualified, and charismatic than Mr Little who could lead that party. His selection reflects the fact that the membership has shrunk back to a hard core of old fashioned trade unionists. To address the distortions that the neoliberal settlement has created requires someone in Politics to examine the control and issue of the country's and the world's means of exchange. The only New Zealander to take this on in recent times was Russell Norman and he has inexplicably withdrawn from the scene. Until someone in labour pics up this baton and runs with it there won't be a Varoufakis or a Corbyn or Trudeau here.<br />Cheers David J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15861676088543591062015-10-28T06:53:13.880+13:002015-10-28T06:53:13.880+13:00Guy. I should have known. There is a brand of anon...Guy. I should have known. There is a brand of anonymous that has trouble with spelling and coherence, mind you often also with modernity.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-65849781250663670392015-10-28T02:21:56.475+13:002015-10-28T02:21:56.475+13:00No, Andrew Little did use the word 'flout'...No, Andrew Little did use the word 'flout'. Which is not very inspired. But all he's doing is reserving the right to legislate in the interests of this country a position which wouldn't out of place among northern Europe's social democratic leaders.<br /><br />If we could be at least as social democratic as, say, Germany, we would have repositioned our political centre about a football field to the left.<br /><br />A centrist political economy like Germany should be the natural example for a centrist, reforming party like NZ Labour.<br /><br />Chris, I think you get disappointed in Labour because you want them to be a party of the radical left. They never have been such a party when it comes to the crunch, notwithstanding some of their radical associations (and radical wings).<br /><br />What Little has done with the TPPA is clumsy, but hardly traitorous. These sorts of trade agreements do not simply get thrown out by the opposition when they win the next election.manfredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05864320667710466331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18317339038025271252015-10-27T23:36:11.372+13:002015-10-27T23:36:11.372+13:00@ JanM : No, I don't believe that Little actua...@ JanM : No, I don't believe that Little actually used that word, 'flout' in the interview. It was the journalist (churnalist) that did that. <br /><br />@ Nick J : To me, socialism is a system of government that has justice, fairness and care for 'EVERYONE IN SOCIETY' as its primary core values. Personally I like Labour because it tries to achieve that goal without being extremist or without working primarily for the wealthy. I want to see Labour's social, economic and environmental policies being 'left, left of centre and centre'....and not extreme left like communism nor extreme right. I consider National/ACT are primarily rightist parties with a few copied Labour social policies thrown in for political expediency and votes, cleverly fooling a good chunk of the people! I hope you are not one of them!CPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45358240181806755062015-10-27T21:56:45.604+13:002015-10-27T21:56:45.604+13:00CP and other supporters of Labour; would you care ...CP and other supporters of Labour; would you care to elucidate your vision / opinion of what Left means to you. I have struggled to comprehend what socialism means to current centrist Labour supporters. Please illuminate me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789254334079198636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-79235106174217049702015-10-27T21:38:42.670+13:002015-10-27T21:38:42.670+13:00I'm really concerned about the way this word &...I'm really concerned about the way this word 'flout' keeps turning up. Did Andrew Little ever actually use that word in his explanations of how Labour would approach the TPPA, or is this part of the overheated use of language designed to derail him? JanMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-71792368056450564262015-10-27T20:58:23.334+13:002015-10-27T20:58:23.334+13:00Chris, hate to rain on your parade, but the photo ...Chris, hate to rain on your parade, but the photo appears to show Trudeau Minor doing the Vulcan 'Live long and prosper' salute...<br /><br />Seriously though, how on earth does youthfulness and photogenicity qualify a person for high political office?<br /><br />Anon @ 11:18 - I'm pretty sure Stuart Nash isn't gay, though I'm happy to be corrected - did you mean to write 'guy' not 'gay'? <br /><br />Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-7741921124214354392015-10-27T20:08:32.907+13:002015-10-27T20:08:32.907+13:00Chris
The TPPA IS a done deal and will be ratifie...Chris<br /><br />The TPPA <b>IS</b> a done deal and will be ratified by this government with or without Labour support.Kevin Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03348361198223152214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26833937710424015042015-10-27T18:58:40.588+13:002015-10-27T18:58:40.588+13:00The ultimate political photo was of a lady kissing...The ultimate political photo was of a lady kissing the hand of Gough Whitlam in a hall meeting on the '72 campaign trail. Hard to beat. <br /><br />But certainly Trudeau is the man of the moment in Canada.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31654407534333469092015-10-27T18:07:45.438+13:002015-10-27T18:07:45.438+13:00Yep Chris my worst fears have come home to roost. ...Yep Chris my worst fears have come home to roost. Andy hasn't the balls to stand up to the TPPA now and he won't later either.<br /><br />If he wants to get anywhere he needs to clean out the Roggiegnomes from the Caucus and bring in some fresh people. Frankly I can't see him doing that or he hasn't the backbone to do so.<br /><br />Another thing is that he needs to find another source of income for the party (which is why I have suggested compulsory Unions) and break free of the sources that are the same as the Gnats.<br /><br />Bushbaptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09657695593141243969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28455747027795217942015-10-27T17:37:29.840+13:002015-10-27T17:37:29.840+13:00@JanM : Well said. I agree.
@C Trotter : Everythi...@JanM : Well said. I agree.<br /><br />@C Trotter : Everything that Mr Little has so far said about the TPPA is responsible, wise and correct. The agreement does not need Labour's endorsement to go through. It is already in! All that Little said was how the party would probably deal with the fait accompli when in power. He also said that he would wait for the full text to see all the finer points.<br /><br />Besides, there will be probably be some mitigating options/provisions such as (a) making mutual adjustments bilaterally with other countries in relation to specific sovereignty issues such as taxes, control of land/house sales to foreigners etc or (b) being able to withdraw from the deal by giving reasonable notice etc.<br /><br />If Labour were to say at this early stage, before consulting party members or before seeing the full text, then that would be premature, immature, irresponsible, stupid and wrong...like throwing the baby with the bath water and feeling smug about it. Let us make sure the baby is really bad and completely incorrigible first!CPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77646193618415841302015-10-27T16:49:49.545+13:002015-10-27T16:49:49.545+13:00I said I was a Labour voter, Peter, not a Labour m...I said I was a Labour voter, Peter, not a Labour member. That door closed behind me 26 years ago.<br /><br />As for all this duck-shoving about the TPPA: the NZLP's position was very clear. If the deal failed to satisfy all of the five pre-conditions set by the Party, then Labour would not support it. Until the text of the TPPA is released it is not possible to know whether all the preconditions have been satisfied. That being the case, Andrew had only to re-state Labour's position pending the release of the text. He did not do that, however, preferring to talk about the TPPA as a done deal and adding that he might "flout" its provisions. Treachery (in that he unilaterally altered the party's position on the TPPA) and ineptitude (in that he proposed to make New Zealand an international laughing-stock).<br /><br />And you still support this guy!Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86818603159758340822015-10-27T16:28:55.942+13:002015-10-27T16:28:55.942+13:00You know where the door is Chris. Stop undermining...You know where the door is Chris. Stop undermining the leadership.peteswriteplacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474922953916383101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38652158028596708422015-10-27T16:27:37.443+13:002015-10-27T16:27:37.443+13:00What was treacherous Mr Trotter? You have been att...What was treacherous Mr Trotter? You have been attacking Labour leaders from Helen Clark down. Andrew just has to get himself organised and clear on what we the Labour supporters and potential voters WANT.peteswriteplacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474922953916383101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57192721943773205632015-10-27T16:24:34.273+13:002015-10-27T16:24:34.273+13:00Andrew Little is and still will be Labour leader c...Andrew Little is and still will be Labour leader come 2017. Michael Joseph Savage was a pretty dour figure himself. It will be substance not political spin and BS that Kiwis will looking for. We know key is a neo-fascist and a paid performer from across the sea. My only concern is that some nutter may want to short-cut our electoral circuit. That becomes a future precedent.peteswriteplacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474922953916383101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82412469684564572682015-10-27T15:47:08.004+13:002015-10-27T15:47:08.004+13:00Chris, I appreciate the direct and honesty of your...Chris, I appreciate the direct and honesty of your 'reply'. The TPPA was a real and proper "point of difference" between 'the man in the street and a Labour party opposition' to the present Government. Andrew Little and the Labour party tried for a 'bob each way' but in reality wanted anything but a real political fight. They are weak, treacherous, inept and a frightened group, who cling to a ideology they have corrupted to suit their personal well being.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com