tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post2611380676570525209..comments2024-03-29T03:41:12.499+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: The Left Triumphant! A Counterfactual History Of The Last Twelve Months.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39770588682258994242016-07-16T10:02:18.558+12:002016-07-16T10:02:18.558+12:00Perhaps we will see something like the counterfact...Perhaps we will see something like the counterfactual history come to pass this time round. Problem is that Greens are seen as anti-jobs by many traditional Labour supporters and a Labour-Green coalition would thus lose their votes. Meanwhile, the Greens must appeal to the centre vote, where elections are generally won and lost, while not turning off their traditional Green base....Interesting times.Paul Elwell-Suttonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82399255881609179362014-10-02T18:59:08.646+13:002014-10-02T18:59:08.646+13:00Chris
Seeing you seem to feel a bit abandoned by ...Chris<br /><br />Seeing you seem to feel a bit abandoned by your readers, may I throw in a quick comment.<br /><br />I think your notion of a "conditions of work" campaign, fueled by ideas from the working public, deserves to be taken seriously by the Labour Party.<br /><br />As things stand, there isn't a great deal in the policy area to distinguish Labour from other parties of the Centre-Left. And what there is, doesn't seem to have much to do with the original concept of being on the side of the "workers", howsoever defined.<br /><br />So this could be a useful branding initiative which would establish a clear "point of difference" without prejudicing cooperation with other parties to the left of centre.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66367832837411270762014-10-02T12:45:28.901+13:002014-10-02T12:45:28.901+13:00The most obvious ploy that Greens and Labour could...The most obvious ploy that Greens and Labour could do is<br /><br />a) refuse to stand a candidate in Epsom. Have a look at the numbers that voted for the electorate candidates for Labour and Greens, then add them to the National total....<br /><br />b) Refuse to stand a candidate in Peter Dunne's electorate. <br /><br />Look at the number of Green votes and the size of Dunne's "Majority". That Dunne got 40% of the vote and 60% voted for others is one of the major drawbacks of FTP. So, if you cannot have STV, game it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46265452167581927872014-10-02T00:12:38.249+13:002014-10-02T00:12:38.249+13:00Dirty Politics should serve notice on any politica...<i>Dirty Politics</i> should serve notice on any political movement for change that any balanced media exposure is unlikely. This isn't unusual. During the Depression almost the entirety of New Zealand's print media were savaging Labour and the right wing resorted to jamming positive messages from the party from the airwaves... some things don't really change.<br /><br />For all the venom unleashed, Labour grew its support in the 1930’s because its message resonated as truth that ordinary people could identify with. Ultimately we all relate to economics. We inherently understand if we are increasing our own security and independence or if life is tougher than yesterday. The maximum of the rich get richer and poor get poorer (and more plentiful) has always been a certainty when trickle down promises provide the guiding ideas in politics. We know that the vast flow of wealth flows to corporations that now pay almost no tax. Every day of the week these freeloaders should be named and shamed if Labour wanted to strike a chord with its heartland. It needs to be vocalising what most of us already know about how working New Zealanders are being strangled for ransom by banks, insurance firms, utilities monopolies and no end of other oligarchies.<br /><br />Forcefully speaking truth to (and about) power develops respect and support from those being squeezed... which always happens to be the bottom two thirds of society anyway. <br /><br />I think you are wrong about trying to bring the Greens "on board" & Mana will remain a kiss of death with deep misgivings from 95% of the population. The role of Labour is to take a stand and stay on message & not even bother mentioning other political parties. Thirty years of corrosive Identity politics has fractured the broad church of the left to the point that elements are found deeply offensive by most of the country. A positive message felt by New Zealanders will bring conscientious supporters on board anyway.<br /><br />Public service reform should be high on the agenda of the left. Departments are required to contract out functions to private organisations regardless of the astronomical cost. Since the 80's the number of managerial and purely administrative positions has mushroomed at the expense of the wages and conditions of frontline staff. Public and union consultation and brainstorming for replacing corporate structured Public Services with flatter self-managed organisations of professionals should be a high priority. A light needs to be pointed at the boardrooms of all government bodies so review of decision making can occur. Employment practices in New Zealand appear to be becoming more mercenary… the first place for open review I the Public Service.<br /><br />The party would need to send its politicians around the country to address “cottage meetings” In branches every few weeks over the next few years. It’s the only way a broad network of communication can occur outside of impersonal media channels.<br /><br />I’d also politely suggest that inspiration from within caucus may be a little difficult to come across. Labour could look at redefining it’s team to include officers outside of parliament – especially dedicated policy convenors who are part of the community & not career politicians. Caucus used to include the President of the party – there is no reason why it count contain the entire National Council and other elected roles.<br />Chances of this actually happening? Zip.Lozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12064567381918975446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-16325040514658340972014-10-01T08:57:24.708+13:002014-10-01T08:57:24.708+13:00Sorry to see the level of immaturity in the respon...Sorry to see the level of immaturity in the responses to your post, Chris. Clearly most of these cats are wedded to particular very sectional views, nicely reinforced for them by shallow media 'bites,' and won't be herded in any particular direction. I can't see the NZ electorate breaking out of this paradigm unless the changing world out there unleashes some sort of tsunami upon us that fractures our complacent indifference.Paritutunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18852245806789053262014-09-30T21:23:12.031+13:002014-09-30T21:23:12.031+13:00Yes Chris, your 'path to victory' is quite...Yes Chris, your 'path to victory' is quite brilliant, and that is the very reason that there has been little reference to it. Having to segue from a well crafted, tactical winning strategy, to the reality of the Labour Party train wreck is simply too much!Rain333https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745912185354498509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4627391575140469232014-09-30T13:12:25.459+13:002014-09-30T13:12:25.459+13:00"Kim Dotcom is persuaded to limit his involve..."Kim Dotcom is persuaded to limit his involvement to making hefty donations to the Opposition parties" <br />is less plausible than a French South Island.<br />Kim Dotcom is only interested in Kim Dotcom, with Kim Dotcom front and centre.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-16468700564689800852014-09-30T13:10:16.684+13:002014-09-30T13:10:16.684+13:00So , Who wants to talk about a French South Island...So , Who wants to talk about a French South Island?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-27180715279617004002014-09-30T12:14:25.609+13:002014-09-30T12:14:25.609+13:00Yes, yes, yes, Wayne. But in the above counterfact...Yes, yes, yes, Wayne. But in the above counterfactual Kim Dotcom is persuaded to limit his involvement to making hefty donations to the Opposition parties and then keeping well clear. So the debacle of Internet-Mana is avoided and Hone remains the staunch (if rather lonely) voice of the poor and marginalised.<br /><br />And, yes, Anonymous@10:49am, it is possible to get 8,000 workers to a rally - I attended one at the self-same Telstra Event Centre in 2010!<br /><br />And, yes, of course I know that Labour in its present state could never agree to pursue such a bold and inclusive political strategy - that's why it requires a counterfactual argument premised on the absurd assumption that Labour's MPs actually want to win an election - rather than play musical chairs for the Leader of the Opposition's big leather seat.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9570661549758673282014-09-30T10:49:40.553+13:002014-09-30T10:49:40.553+13:00Chris ,
You make some good points, but:
Internet ...Chris ,<br />You make some good points, but:<br /><br />Internet Mana were poison! This is the central message from the electorate. They were seen as traitors funded by foreign criminals, for the ends of said criminal. Because they were. Any association with them causes a historic rush to National. See the actual election results. (Also Hone wouldn't cooperate with anyone even without Dotcom).<br /><br />The 'appeal to the worker' is a plausible idea. Certainly better than 'we're like National, but with a slightly different tax regime'. <br /><br />Crappy self serving hagiographies don't persuade anyone. "My glorious life by Your Dear Leader" . The trend started by Brian Edwards on Helen, and continued by Brash and Key should be stopped. Anyway, Cunliffe doesn't have a very compelling story, Key's is much more interesting.<br /><br />I doubt Hager would be persuaded. He's a True Believer in what he does, and though he does good (if illegal!) research, and raises valid and worrying points, his conclusions verge on conspiracy theory. Though I guess that is your point!<br /><br />COULD Labour and the CTU get 8000 people? And Hone to cooperate? And you'd have to involve the Greens, so they don't feel left out. But they don't like industry, so many union members are deeply suspicious of them.<br /><br />Labour were always far too faction ridden to do anything you suggested.<br />That's where it all falls down.<br />I'm sure you know that.<br /><br />Still, 'Alternative Histories' are always fun. A French South Island is one of my favourites, although it isn't very plausible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-23697401797220865812014-09-30T09:53:56.931+13:002014-09-30T09:53:56.931+13:00Hi Chris,
I can understand a joint platform of La...Hi Chris,<br /><br />I can understand a joint platform of Labour and the Greens. As you note one of the reasons for the Labour/Alliance success in 1999 was this element. Broadly speaking voters knew what they were going to get, because at least the basics had been agreed. But in this election they did not, so therefore middle voters deserted both Labour and the Greens. Too much risk of unknown govt policy. <br />But including Mana would have been a disaster. It could have well driven Labour votes below 20%, with the voters deserting to Winston. Voters really did not like the KDC influence. Kelvin got there because moderate voters in Te Tai Tokerau could not stand the KDC influence.Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54640170074738487642014-09-30T09:43:52.162+13:002014-09-30T09:43:52.162+13:00To: Everyone
It is a telling commentary on the cu...To: Everyone<br /><br />It is a telling commentary on the current shell-shock state of the Left that no one commenting on this posting has made reference to the components of what I believe would have been a winning campaign strategy.<br /><br />These included:<br /><br />Bringing the Greens and Mana on board early as co-campaigners for a change of government.<br /><br />An exhaustive consultative exercise into what workers see as their rights and responsibilities in the workplace and how these might best be secured legally and institutionally.<br /><br />The use of books (remember them?) to flesh out the leader's vision and strategy.<br /><br />Anticipating possible problems - and neutralising them before they become problems.<br /><br />The use of mass events to emphasise the reality of mass support for both the leader and party policy (See Phoebe Fletcher's excellent posting on the Pundit blogsite.)<br /><br />The use of the nationwide cavalcade (rather than random mall visits) to build campaign momentum and excitement.<br /><br />I would be really interested to learn what Bowalley Road's readers think about these tactical offerings - not to mention their thoughts on broader strategic issues.<br /><br />Come on people!Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-12763056798495825032014-09-30T08:18:47.475+13:002014-09-30T08:18:47.475+13:00Things appear to be rapidly moving from the sublim...Things appear to be rapidly moving from the sublime to the ridiculous.<br /><br />Josie Pagani has just published a post on Pundit suggesting Labour should transform itself into something much more akin to the Roman Catholic Church.<br /><br />I can just imagine the Labour Party President's reaction: "Christ !, that's all we need !" As if Labour isn't dysfunctional enough already. <br /><br />You'd have to say that if the contemporary Catholic Church is the answer then what the friggin hell was the question ??????markusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-52710568450498316402014-09-30T00:11:32.751+13:002014-09-30T00:11:32.751+13:00I was reminded of a column I read some time back, ...I was reminded of a column I read some time back, turns out it was August 2012 by Duncan Garner. Reading it again in light of the disaster that was Sept 20 (really, that was only 9 days ago?!) surely the outcome was entirely predictable. <br /><br />Some things really jump out at me. Cunlife..."never delivers on his promises and is sneaky and lazy". I was astounded with the amount of time DC was 'MIA' during the campaign at crucial times. It goes without saying he is 'tricky'. I accept that particular label was tagged by the opposition, but I believe it to be a fitting one, I saw him talking out of both sides of his mouth once too often. <br /><br />"He (Cunliffe) and the caucus have already collided - and it's a big pile up"....seems that Duncan Garner had the ability to look into the future, and the 'pile up' to which he referred is quite clearly the train wreck that is the current Labour Party.<br /><br />http://www.3news.co.nz/opinion/duncan-garner/opinion-why-does-labour-hate-david-cunliffe-so-much-2012080714Rain333https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745912185354498509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-11366584549003981302014-09-29T19:04:45.185+13:002014-09-29T19:04:45.185+13:00tranquil, you appear to be conveniently ignoring...tranquil, you appear to be conveniently ignoring the 9 years of surplus, the formation of the Cullen fund and zero government debt that Nat inherited from the Labour led government that placed the country in a strong position enabling National to offset the worst effects of those two events.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10510819512356944592014-09-29T13:09:56.068+13:002014-09-29T13:09:56.068+13:00You might call it growing up, the rest of us would...<br />You might call it growing up, the rest of us would say it's the biggest and worst project of social engineering ever undertaken in this country. To convince people that the weak and helpless should be abandoned. And vilified – because we know it's all their own fault. Instead of grown-up, I would characterise your vision of society is dog eat dog, and the devil take the hindmost :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-34139803332770882042014-09-29T12:14:04.621+13:002014-09-29T12:14:04.621+13:00C.E. and W.M. are correct. As long as Labour and ...C.E. and W.M. are correct. As long as Labour and the left-wing continue the delusion that they have a monopoly on caring then they will be doomed to rot on the Opposition benches. As long as the left-wing sees more taxes and more money thrown at beneficiaries as the answer, they will never leave Opposition. <br /><br />National have had to cope with the most difficult situation in decades (the GFC and the Canterbury quakes). They managed to not only "keep the ship on course" but make our economy the envy of all other Western countries. <br />It is no surprise then that the Nats were re-elected. <br /><br />Labour almost always goes for the "easy answers" - the "baby bribe", more money for this, more money for that. People aren't as foolish as they used to be - they can now see that such largesse must be paid for. This is why Labour is doomed. They are at the end of a left-wing cul-de-sac and are unable and unwilling to move to the right. <br />tranquilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57545876493814968862014-09-29T11:49:56.371+13:002014-09-29T11:49:56.371+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86299640999260952722014-09-29T11:46:46.506+13:002014-09-29T11:46:46.506+13:00"Over the last 70 years National has been abl..."Over the last 70 years National has been able to be elected because it also believes in these things. "<br />That's the myth you like to believe :-). I work with people who have access to none of these.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8338628442041447832014-09-29T11:44:47.778+13:002014-09-29T11:44:47.778+13:00Wayne , the assertion that the road to the "g...Wayne , the assertion that the road to the "good: aspects of our society is merely matter of the means is to say the least disingenuous as the problem those who take issue with the right is not the provision of these social necessities but the accessibility/affordability..in this the neo lib experiment has indeed been shown to fail miserably, far more so overseas but then they were starting from a point of less historical egalitarinism than we were. NZ is perhaps fortunate to be in a position to study what has happened and take steps to mitigate the worst of the effects rather than deluding ourselves we can continue rushing towards the cliff like a bunch of lemmings.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86493117964608063332014-09-29T08:44:48.954+13:002014-09-29T08:44:48.954+13:00Alan,
You are making an assertion that all those w...Alan,<br />You are making an assertion that all those who believe in good education, good healthcare, having a job with prospects, and a society free from racism etc is the domain of the Left. That is an absurd statement. Over the last 70 years National has been able to be elected because it also believes in these things. The pathway to get there might be somewhat different to Labour, but the aspiration is essentially the same.<br />I assume, based on your implicit attack on the style of Labour under Helen Clark, you are another of the Left who believe there is a "failed neo-liberal experiment". In my view as long as Labour conveys this message it will remain in opposition. Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-75262553408459009922014-09-29T00:53:27.326+13:002014-09-29T00:53:27.326+13:00Mr Rhodes you must imagine most people are childre...Mr Rhodes you must imagine most people are children looking for a strong lead from a parent-like government who will look after them.<br />Like the small religious minority who again, like children look a god to provide for them and keep them safe.<br />Grow up. Most of us only want the minimum from the government these days. And that is sound management of the country and no more. We do not want to be led at all by this manager we employ. So we mature citizens do not look up adoringly to our manager. But we will respect them if they do a good job and will renew their contact, as we have just done and as we did with the competent Ms Clark. <br />So there was no way we were going to put up a horrible committee of pretenders like Cunliffe, Norman and Harre. Yuk! We not only knew they were unworthy of even sweeping out our garages, we knew they could not do the job.<br />The world has grown up mate. You need to too.Charles Etheringtonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-6048280271436943932014-09-29T00:51:20.987+13:002014-09-29T00:51:20.987+13:00Isn't getting people off unemployment and into...<i>Isn't getting people off unemployment and into work a very practical manifestation of caritas?</i><br /><br />Not if your way of doing it is to simply cut off people's benefits ("are there no prisons? are there no workhouses?"), which is pretty much all the National Party considers these days - it's never the fault of the wider economic conditions, it's always the failure of the individual. The last Tory PM who tried the other route, namely stimulating the economy in order to ensure there were more jobs (in election year anyway) was Rob Muldoon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-68511406512431947972014-09-28T21:44:27.438+13:002014-09-28T21:44:27.438+13:00one thing all should be considering, especially th...one thing all should be considering, especially those within Labour with input to reformation is what is the desired outcome for NZ they believe the bulk of NZ want and then work out how to achieve and market that..if that requires acceptance/adaptation of the current economic orthodoxy those further left may have to bite their tongues and use their wits and energy moderating the effects of said policy because the alternative (National) government has shown itself to be increasingly extreme right with its demonstrated anti democratic actions and increasing power of the state...contrary to the recent election result I believe most NZers would be very unhappy with where that road leads...Labour need to show the public both destinations and their map on how we can get to the better destination. pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-7251563409840120732014-09-28T17:03:18.870+13:002014-09-28T17:03:18.870+13:00If Labour wants to ever govern again it must know ...If Labour wants to ever govern again it must know where power comes from and challenge that with a moral call to arms that citizens can and want to respond to.<br /><br />The Right understands this very well, but what passes for the Left in this land seems to have forgotten. If you believe that citizens have a right to work ; a right to organize in unions; a right to access the best in healthcare for themselves and their children, a right to access the best in education, and a right to live in an inclusive society where race, religion, gender… and wealth, do not determine your worth to the whole, then your inclinations are Left.<br /><br />The Right, with its docile media and competitive winner/loser mentality undermines all these things, as successive governments, Labour and National dominated, have done since the 1980s.<br /><br />Most people vote with their hearts if they vote at all. The stuff above they understand, if someone has the passion to articulate it, and herein lies Labour’s problem. Sucked along in the eddies of the Neanderthal Right with its powerful corporate, financial, and media interests, Labour erroneously thinks it has to humour the same love-interests to succeed, thereby taking away real choice from voters, and condemning itself, and them. Not for nothing were Labour parties like this called the ‘Fire-brigades of Capitalism’.<br /> <br /> People want a future to think about and aspire to. They need to be uplifted with grand visions articulated with courage and conviction, not put to sleep with bamboozling leader debates over tangles of dollars and cents. To do this Labour must be prepared to challenge and change the power structures that keep the privileged Right in control, and the majority out of it.<br />Alan Rhodes<br />Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158473327999595285noreply@blogger.com