tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post3504134576082786778..comments2024-03-29T03:41:12.499+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Little's Hate Speech Laws Will Destroy This Government.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-91806618519778711752020-03-17T11:20:09.435+13:002020-03-17T11:20:09.435+13:00The thing that stands out to me is that the entire...The thing that stands out to me is that the entire "hate speech" conversation on this blog has centred on Islam.<br /><br />Any legislation is going to have to be so general as to be completely unusable. If speech that is deemed hateful to religion is the criteria, then the Koran has to be banned as it asserts that all Jews are to be eliminated.<br /><br />If speech that is deemed hateful to a particular ethnic group is to be banned, then any talk by Maori of "colonialists" has to be banned.<br /><br />If speech that is deemed hateful to transgender groups is to be banned, then much of the satire of the last 75 years must be banned. There'll be a "bloody good book burning" as a result.<br /><br />It is absolutely crazy.rouppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07446734587426078093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-37015386979731036872020-02-29T21:54:09.694+13:002020-02-29T21:54:09.694+13:00Nick J
I am sorry if I disappoint you but I thoug...Nick J <br />I am sorry if I disappoint you but I thought the ex-cop was okay. His approach seemed to come within the normal behaviour of a reasonable man. I am concerned that the practice of police acting to prevent crime at their own behest seems to be widespread. I think they should be alert to what is going on in society but they seem to be ready to be self-starting, with car chases almost entrapment. China's face-recognition system next?<br /><br />I won't be forgetting police in NZ setting up phony check points to get personal names and addresses of people who had attended a meeting about euthanasia, and then the police visited these people, many women, and questioned them about possession of some banned drugs. Police have a lot of discretion about what they will pursue. They butted in on these people.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22540708623314109232020-02-29T07:49:01.128+13:002020-02-29T07:49:01.128+13:00"GS, those examples you have given are alread..."GS, those examples you have given are already in breach of our laws on incitement to violence,"<br /><br />Not in the US. As I said very few of you seem to have thought this through. Sorry to be so brief.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-72460430434725173182020-02-28T17:01:50.876+13:002020-02-28T17:01:50.876+13:00Grey, the shocking part of the video was the revel...Grey, the shocking part of the video was the revelation that he is an ex cop. His world as a cop involved upholding laws against defined offenses that could be factualised for evidence and prosecuted. Being investigated for possible ill defined hate crimes really threw him. Only an ex cop could defend himself as he did. Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90796257473879406132020-02-28T11:39:23.789+13:002020-02-28T11:39:23.789+13:00kiwidave
Just to be mischievous too, when people t...kiwidave<br />Just to be mischievous too, when people talking about knowing I think of the impenetrable hedge around knowing, when one doesn't want to. And this:<br /><br /><i>[Donald!] Rumsfeld stated:<br /><br /> Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones...<br /><br />Rumsfeld's statement brought much fame and public attention to the concepts of known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns, but national security and intelligence professionals have long used an analysis technique referred to as the Johari window. The idea of unknown unknowns was created in 1955 by two American psychologists, Joseph Luft (1916–2014) and Harrington Ingham (1916–1995) in their development of the Johari window. They used it as a technique to help people better understand their relationship with themselves as well as others...<br /><br /> Rumsfeld himself cited NASA administrator William Graham in his memoir; he wrote that he had first heard "a variant of the phrase" from Graham when they served together on the Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States during the late 1990s.[4] Kirk Borne, an astrophysicist who was employed as a data scientist at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center at the time, noted in an April 2013 TED talk that he had used the phrase "unknown unknowns" in a talk to personnel at the Homeland Security Transition Planning Office... </i> <br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns<br /><br />These concepts are important to politicians and purveyors of advanced and novel systems of technology, and possible destruction and death. It is no doubt important to be able to corral off the bits of happenings that you might be blamed for and those which are complete unknown unknowns!greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13462874372885633502020-02-28T07:49:21.761+13:002020-02-28T07:49:21.761+13:00Sorry Guerilla Surgeon, I shouldn't have straw...Sorry Guerilla Surgeon, I shouldn't have straw-manned your argument like that, just me being mischievous.<br />Still, I don't know of any evidence showing an imbalance favouring the right in our media, much less a "lock on the media".David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-48705557849918364872020-02-28T07:38:55.336+13:002020-02-28T07:38:55.336+13:00False Belief #3: Morality is All About Care and Fa...False Belief #3: Morality is All About Care and Fairness<br /><br />Haidt’s second principle of moral psychology is “There’s more to morality than care and fairness.” Care and fairness make up only a fraction of the “evolved psychological mechanisms” from which our gut feelings of right and wrong arise. Additional intuitions, Hume’s passions, of personal autonomy, loyalty to one’s in-group, respect for authority, attention to purity/sanctity, and possibly others, are found on every continent, suggesting that they are human universals. Morality is the…<br /><br />“… interlocking sets of values, virtues, norms, practices, identities, institutions, technologies, and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate self-interest and make cooperative societies possible.” (The Righteous Mind, p. 314)<br />https://areomagazine.com/2018/05/12/understanding-human-nature-is-the-best-way-of-fixing-our-political-culture/John Hurleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10087275850436214582020-02-28T07:33:46.719+13:002020-02-28T07:33:46.719+13:00Re anti-immigration. @ GS do you know the differen...Re anti-immigration. @ GS do you know the difference between a taboo and a moral position?John Hurleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77692341078096404632020-02-27T21:07:27.590+13:002020-02-27T21:07:27.590+13:00There are clearly people out there who want to pro... There are clearly people out there who want to propound obnoxious, reactionary on racial and cultural issues. if `hate speech` is criminalised, they will go underground. I would far rather know who they are so I can argue openly with them.<br /><br />Brian O'Brien Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11979168426689750235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77629634622113131402020-02-27T19:22:00.819+13:002020-02-27T19:22:00.819+13:00As an example of someone who has gone through the ...As an example of someone who has gone through the whole transgender thing fully Jan Morris is someone to look up to. No whinger her. And at the end of this interview of her at 91 years she muses that kindness is probably the most important thing.<br />(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-4aIbApvq0<br /><br />Mixed with a story she wrote at a battleship she weaves in kindness - quite a person.<br />(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfGU9IPmk_k<br />greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-33392784494327870182020-02-27T16:09:15.600+13:002020-02-27T16:09:15.600+13:00NickJ
Watched with interest that link. I think I...NickJ<br />Watched with interest that link. I think I heard a name 'Fair Cop' as a support group. I haven't looked it up yet.<br /><br />(Harry Miller, a 54-year-old former police officer and now docker from Humberside, founded campaign group Fair Cop following the action against him over his Twitter posts.)<br /><br />The slippery slope, and the self-centred, over-sensitive who want to live a protected 'convent life' on the outside will crucify us as was tried on Harry Miller if they aren't bridled.<br /><br />Jonathan Pie would have to shut up; his rants could power the UK. Don't let him get scared of anonymous sadsacks please.<br />(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_6APlOR_jggreywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70265668409523825052020-02-27T12:26:49.021+13:002020-02-27T12:26:49.021+13:00GS, those examples you have given are already in b...GS, those examples you have given are already in breach of our laws on incitement to violence, the argument is superfluous. Copping a visit from the AATP (Angry Andy's Thought Police) for saying women don't have penises is on another level altogether.David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-60246948425218225352020-02-27T11:42:31.545+13:002020-02-27T11:42:31.545+13:00Kiwi Dave. There's more to the right than anti...Kiwi Dave. There's more to the right than anti-immigration, beneficiary bashing, climate change denial, and pro-Trump stories. And if you don't know that I think your reading is at fault. These are the extremes. The privately owned New Zealand media are out to make money, and they plug the party line that unregulated capitalism is good, and sometimes spike stories that offend private companies/advertisers(Freedom of speech anyone?). That's just a couple of things, but as I said a bit busy these days I might get back to you.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39258815670665182552020-02-27T11:08:44.170+13:002020-02-27T11:08:44.170+13:00Further but back in the cocoon where we live, Free...Further but back in the cocoon where we live, Free speech serves another important function. We know people,and we assess who to chose as friends or not by what they say. Not directly about ourselves esp in a situation where the person in question may be seeking to advance a friendship (or romance) but by the disposition that is revealed by what the say about others and about events. If people are silenced by law from giving voice to their attitudes it becomes even harder to know them. So many choices of partner are made that turn out to be a disaster because one or other party turned out to be quite different from how they seemed at first. Preventing them from identifying themselves would make that worse.<br /><br />D J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4611405514452792232020-02-27T10:15:55.169+13:002020-02-27T10:15:55.169+13:00The free speech debate is being addressed in the W...The free speech debate is being addressed in the Woolwich Court at the moment. This is what free speech is about. Any laws that prevent people from speaking their minds will be used as the US is seeking to prevent people from being allowed to know how government behaves . The issue in focus in Assange's case has parallels to Hager's "Hit and Run". So far the procedure reads like the court case of Pinocchio. The presiding judge as reported on RT this morning actually said to Assange when he complained that he was not able to communicate with his council in private that "“Mr Assange, generally defendants do not have a voice.” if you can believe that.<br /> All we can hope is that the judge is demonstrating to the Americans that there is no bias in favour of Assange going on in respect of unerring their extradition agreement , and that in the end the law will free him. If not we do not live in a civilised world , and the cradle of our democratic system has turned on us.<br /> Free speech is necessary to allow the people to protect themselves and each other from wholesale murder by the state , whether the people who need that protection live in our country or in another. Hurt feelings are not the problem , genocide like in the Chattams in 1835 is the problem. We seem to be so isolated from the harm that is being done to people in the middle east, and South America that is real, and people are suffering from it, that we have to invent persecutions to protest about while we are loosing the tenants of civilisation that matter.<br /><br /> D J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-47745082731816863052020-02-27T10:03:12.385+13:002020-02-27T10:03:12.385+13:001. Put simply, the government embarked on an optim...1. <i>Put simply, the government embarked on an optimistic plan of social engineering to transform New Zealand into an 'Asian' country; unfortunately, it did a poor job of publicising its intent or rationale. Under the slogan that a global economy required global citizens, an ambitious plan was hatched to restructure society around an Asian axis. But these initiatives moved too quickly for most people, ignored the need to consult or convince people of the importance of any fundamental shift, and did little to monitor the impact of immigration on public perception </i>(Heeringa 1996). <br /><br />2. 41% think immigration from Asia will have a positive impact. Those with "most knowledge" of Asia are most likely to be positive.<br /><br />3. After the mosque attacks RNZ commisioned Reaserch NZ to ask "what do NZrs think of diversity" and concluded we are "50:50" (Remember we are diverse).<br /><br />4. The economic benefits have favoured the owners of land and been generally concentrated (architects/engineers/universities) whereas<br /><br />Real wages in tourism and hospitality fell 24.5% between 1979 and 2006 <br /><br /><i>Hi John, thanks for your email. The figures I quote are from my PhD thesis, they were sourced from Stats NZ year books and data over that period. You can access the thesis through the AUT website, I would send you the link but I am in Croatia and don't have access to my regular computer. I will send you the link when I get home in 4 weeks. Yes this is a long term trend that not many people in NZ want to talk about, it affects all but the elite workforce and it's a result of the neo- liberal revolution in the 1980s, we have gained considerable economic growth and consumer choice, but the rewards of that growth are increasingly concentrated into the hands of the ones with established capital, wages earners are losing year after year</i><br /><br />5. Giles Beckford goes hunting for "white supremacists". He goes under cover (Facebook or whereever). His colleagues at RNZ ask him "how was life in the sewer?"<br /><br />6. A nice quietly spoken tourbus driver confides that "everyday I wake up I'm depressed to think that wherever I go there will be Chinese drivers (dominant)". Another really good natured man hates staying at X because it is where the Asian drivers stay and there is mutual animosity. Is this racism or human nature. A society held together by positive ligatures is a warm blanket. There is a loss of status for the New Zealander but where does that go? Ardern, Clark etc who get to strut their stuff on the "world stage".<br /><br />7. The new divide is between the in group/out group. The in group gets showered with taxpayer money. They are armament factories for spreading ideas. They have the corporates on their side because inflows of capital and people are good for business. The outgroup are lepers, shabby, and deemed incompetent: Vincent O'Malley doesn't engage with Hobson's Pledge and RNZ is the mouth piece for the in-group.John Hurleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-11138383909057955492020-02-27T08:11:30.073+13:002020-02-27T08:11:30.073+13:00You know I never thought I'd say this but judg...You know I never thought I'd say this but judging by the mishmash of misinterpretations and – let's say clouded thinking – there has come about as a response to my "moaning" – I'm sort of glad I haven't got the time to hang around here as much as I used to.<br />Let me try to be clearer.<br />All rights come with limitations. No one here it seems to me has thought about where these limitations should be – unless you all think there should be none? My comment contain specific questions I think should be at least thought about – none of you have.<br />So where should the limitations be on free speech – if any?<br />And if none what are we going to do with people like Rick Wiles, a friend of Donald Trump's incidentally who has been given a press pass, when normal media organisations have been refused them – now that's limitation on freedom of speech nobody seems to give a shit about here. He claims that Muslims should be "stomped out like cockroaches." He claims that "Jews are going to take over the US and kill millions of Christians".<br />Is this "a bit of criticism?" If it is, I have nothing more to say to you.<br />I've just seen on a Christian website, a comment that says something like <br /><br />"What's wrong with criticizing Jews when their crimes are right out in the open for all to witness?" As a reaction to 1 of Wiles's statements.<br />Not to mention that everyone seems happy to ignore my example of the lie about the pizza restaurant. <br />And just for the record, I did not say it is impossible to change people's minds. I simply said it's time-consuming and very difficult. How many people like Daryl Davis are there, and how many people from the KKK has he managed to convert? Has he truly managed to convert them? Or do they just want a "black friend" so they can't be accused of being racist?<br />I guess most of you would consider a statement like "gay people should be killed" to be out of bounds? I'm not at all sure to be honest. But what about something like – as has been said – gay people deserve death? I suspect this is a little more than hurt fee fees – or maybe not?<br /><br /><br />Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-81846643467787974162020-02-27T07:39:16.153+13:002020-02-27T07:39:16.153+13:00GS: "in this country as in many others the ri...GS: "in this country as in many others the right has a lock on the media"<br />Right....the MSM is so chock full of right wing propaganda (anti-immigration, climate change denial, anti minority, beneficiary bashing and undeniably pro Trump/anti Ardern) it would make Goebbels blush. <br />I've no idea how you came to that conclusion; what are you actually reading and watching?David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8615951806926008872020-02-27T07:22:37.949+13:002020-02-27T07:22:37.949+13:00Sorry GS, I think you missed my point entirely.
Pl...Sorry GS, I think you missed my point entirely.<br />Please forgive me if I have this wrong but you implied, in your previous post, that there was little point in open dialogue because it doesn't change peoples unreasonable POV.<br />My response was to question whether you, personally, have changed your position thanks to reasoned argument. If not I can fully understand why you would make that assertion. Is it, perhaps, more a reflection of your own intransigence (or even assumed omniscience) than the inability of others to argue in good faith.<br />A couple of quotes from Thomas Sowell seem appropriate:<br />“Considering how often throughout history even intelligent people have been proved to be wrong, it is amazing that there are still people who are convinced that the only reason anyone could possibly say something different from what they believe is stupidity or dishonesty.”<br />"It is amazing how many people think that they can answer an argument by attributing bad motives to those who disagree with them. Using this kind of reasoning, you can believe or not believe anything about anything, without having to bother to deal with facts or logic."<br />David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1542749302047071692020-02-26T05:33:51.326+13:002020-02-26T05:33:51.326+13:00If you believe there is such a thing as hate speec...If you believe there is such a thing as hate speech, you can't believe in free speech.<br />A belief in free speech is tolerating speech you find abhorrent, not criminalizing it.<br /><br />Changing the limit of free speech from criminalizing threats of physical violence to criminalizing whoever causes hurty feelings is why they are known as the generation snowflake. Cynical politicians using this to shut down the opposition is a great example of totalitarianism. <br /><br />Instead of turning NZ totalitarian, if it's so good, wouldn't it be easier just to move to North Korea, China, or Iran? <br /><br />Anon99https://www.blogger.com/profile/14426271102453577623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-34390872189836185722020-02-26T02:43:22.020+13:002020-02-26T02:43:22.020+13:00Anti-semitic, Racist, Islamaphobia and Terrorist a...Anti-semitic, Racist, Islamaphobia and Terrorist are surely the four most overused and misused words in the English language in the 21st century. Our grandchildren will look back and wonder "What the fuck was wrong with those fellas? Couldn't they handle just a bit of criticism? Grow up for God's sake!"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05759147545454385635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86612448827108712792020-02-26T00:47:54.137+13:002020-02-26T00:47:54.137+13:00Guerilla Surgeon, It's not Chris that has to p...Guerilla Surgeon, It's not Chris that has to prove anything - when we have someone like Daryl Davis proving exactly what you are moaning can't happen, by the simple task of just talking to people. <br /><br />The only road to a meaningful solutions is an open dialogue, becasue we have history to remind us of all the people who "knew better", and how they got it so wrong. adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684187040294382466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-91450150206195506002020-02-25T21:45:41.633+13:002020-02-25T21:45:41.633+13:00On this insight program
https://www.rnz.co.nz/nati...On this insight program<br />https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018734855/free-speech-vs-hate-speech-the-government-s-dilemma<br /><br />For example. Juliet Moses says she sees comments like "Hitler should have finished the job", yet these sort of comments the public will take care of. What they are really afraid of is dangerous ideas (plausible counter arguments) that knock down the gated institutional narrative.The managerial elite engaged in positive liberalism but a state is not a private institution we can opt out of; the Burke Review of Immigration may have decided diversity is of immense benefit but they have yet to convince the public. Hate speech laws are just a tightening of the noose. <br /><br />I see on Insight the focus seems to be on the role of university as the eyes and ears /conscience of the nation, shame that they are bats**t crazy. What about the man in the Clapham omnibus? <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zszsRDtCNFM&t=73s<br /><br />Spoonley says "you won't find the answers on the internet". I disagree 1. Skin deep diversity adds nothing to performance 2. the UN modelled immigration and population ageing and found it isn't a panacea 3. the consensus amongst policy analysts is that other things are more important for NZs economic performance than immigration and population growth 4.Diversity and social cohesion are inversely related 5. Rebooting the regions means house prices go up when Chinese buy dairy factories as they buy the houses for their workers..... 5. racism is ethnocentrism and didn't come with European colonisation. 6. Napier pine was paying it's welders $3/hr 7. Ha Joon-Chan says the well being of the vast majority of people in rich countries is dependant on draconian border control. 8. the Xenophobes aren't always silly https://www.2gb.com/alarming-national-security-report-a-big-wake-up-call-for-all-australiansJohn Hurleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-89284341927257585712020-02-25T19:05:43.947+13:002020-02-25T19:05:43.947+13:00For anybody who doubts the Orwellian nature of tho...For anybody who doubts the Orwellian nature of thought policing being a reality watch this true case of a British man being persecuted for "hate speech". The judge found in his favour.<br />https://youtu.be/x0wC7c9SywkNick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22534307311789684452020-02-25T16:59:26.161+13:002020-02-25T16:59:26.161+13:00So if someone offends us they should be dragged to...So if someone offends us they should be dragged to court and, if possible, thrown in jail?<br /><br />Greywarbler, your authoritarian, fascist ideology that wants to imprison people for speaking their mind *greatly* offends and upsets me! <br /><br />Are you prepared to go to jail for causing me this pain?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com