tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post4148607047947158013..comments2024-03-29T11:07:51.893+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Deep State. Big Trouble.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28563128951738399492017-03-12T16:53:55.942+13:002017-03-12T16:53:55.942+13:00Your point is well made, GS.
Even so, I've al...Your point is well made, GS.<br /><br />Even so, I've always assumed that, had the plot succeeded, there would have been many able people in "internal emigration", who'd have been available to help the new regime.<br /><br />Konrad Adenauer comes to mind. The former Lord Mayor of Cologne (in which role he....and not Hitler...had built the first Autobahns)was lying low in enforced retirement in July 1944. He wasn't part of the plot but was pulled in by the subsequent Gestapo dragnet and spent the last few months of the war in a concentration camp. <br /><br />His subsequent ally and successor as Chancellor, Ludwig Erhard (the "Father of the Economic Miracle"), was working clandestinely on plans for Germany's reconstruction on the assumption of defeat and was in touch with some of the plotters, albeit probably not fully briefed of what was going on.<br /><br />And, no doubt, there were many others just biding their time.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-53314233168187429232017-03-02T09:55:20.886+13:002017-03-02T09:55:20.886+13:00Victor. I suspect that the only part of the July p...Victor. I suspect that the only part of the July plot that almost succeeded was the assassination of Hitler. The rest of it seems to have been distinctly disorganised. Mind you, if Hitler was dead that might not have mattered.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-27113590622995470872017-02-28T17:32:40.798+13:002017-02-28T17:32:40.798+13:00GS
I agree that they were different in many ways....GS<br /><br />I agree that they were different in many ways. My point was that the coterie and its associates might be thought of as Germany's Deep State.<br /><br />If so, working on the assumptions that they were (whatever their faults) better than the Nazis and that their success might have led to an earlier end to the conflict and a couple of million fewer corpses, it might be reasonable to cite their attempt as an example of Deep State working for the good. In other words, if there is such a thing as a Deep State, it's not always a wholly bad thing.<br /><br />The July plot, moreover, almost succeeded and, had it succeeded, would have had the skills and experience to put an alternative administration together. A deep state might be able to do that sort of thing but a group of admirably courageous, humane and self-sacrificing students can't. <br /><br />But I agree there's a whole lot of 'mights' and 'coulds' involved here.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-69435408129306488582017-02-28T11:56:36.141+13:002017-02-28T11:56:36.141+13:00We shouldn't be putting the White Rose organis...We shouldn't be putting the White Rose organisation and von Stauffenberg's coterie of army officers in the same category. Basically all they had in common was an aversion to Hitler. Von Stauffenberg was NOT a Democrat.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-40962719078135403392017-02-27T22:24:31.978+13:002017-02-27T22:24:31.978+13:00greywarbler
I read somewhere recently that Sophie...greywarbler<br /><br />I read somewhere recently that Sophie is the most popular girl's name in Germany and has been for some years. <br /><br />Perhaps there's some hope for our species after all.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25828622412683185072017-02-26T17:27:20.994+13:002017-02-26T17:27:20.994+13:00This video of over 2 hours is fascinating and hist...This video of over 2 hours is fascinating and historical. See the young Tony Blair make the decision to invade Iraq, or wherever, see the young Donald Trump and hear his amazing story. (The casino one is really good.) See the weathercock politicians swing around and point the finger of fire at Gaddafi when someone has to take the blame apart from the real miscreant. It is better, or worse, than fiction. And after efforts to fix the problem, that seem worse than the disease, one is left with a feeling of...well, dis-ease.<br /><br />The Deep State is deeper than three wells.<br />(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amMgreywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-32995862343637060762017-02-26T17:17:33.192+13:002017-02-26T17:17:33.192+13:00Victor at 24//2 15.12
Sophie Scholl and Claus von...Victor at 24//2 15.12<br />Sophie Scholl and Claus von Faustenberg are mentioned. And I can't find mention of them elsewhere in the post. A few years back I started looking at Germans who stood up for good in the nasty society after remembering Admiral Canaris. And read about the White Rose group and Sophie Scholl and must honour her name by a little tribute to her, her brother and the brave group standing against their fellow people.<br /><br /><i>Hans and Sophie Scholl, often referred to in German as die Geschwister Scholl (literally: the Scholl siblings), were a brother and sister who were members of the White Rose, a student group in Munich that was active in the non-violent resistance movement in Nazi Germany, especially in distributing flyers against the war and the dictatorship of Adolf Hitler. In post-war Germany, Hans and Sophie Scholl are recognized as symbols of the Christian German resistance movement against the totalitarian Nazi regime.</i> Wikipedia<br /><br />and <i>Claus von Stauffenberg<br />Claus Philipp Maria Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg was a German army officer and member of the German nobility who was one of the leading members of the failed 20 July plot of 1944 to assassinate Adolf Hitler and remove the Nazi Party from power.More at Wikipedia </i><br /><br />I would dearly like, at our Anzac rituals over the country, to have a few minutes spent on bringing forward the heroes of the other side of the war, to whom we owe much for their deep devotion to respecting humanity. That is what our people were also fighting for, though perhaps not so clearly in their minds. My father's bones lying in France would approve I think, he was apparently a good man, and a thinker. <br /><br />By the way, The Deep State perhaps is seen as necessary in a democracy with changing politicians, personnel etc. and like permanent police, defence force, helps to give continuity to efforts to maintain the integrity of the state. That would be the official reason anyway.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38211926943747570542017-02-26T17:07:31.431+13:002017-02-26T17:07:31.431+13:00Victor...The absolutist bit; you know I had never ...Victor...The absolutist bit; you know I had never questioned my assumption of the "evil" of the Deep State and it came as a surprise when you commented. Can they do good? Now there is a poser, I need to ponder. I have Kissingers latest to read, I have alwats considered him a criminal however he makes a lot of sense. No easy answers but it may shed some light on the subject.<br /><br />On the Brownshirts you are right. My point was the continuity of a politicised militarism with a deep pool of available deep state backers from whom to recruit and to garner support from.Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90852734995374740672017-02-26T15:45:00.673+13:002017-02-26T15:45:00.673+13:00Nick J
Your point is well made.
But does it sup...Nick J<br /><br />Your point is well made. <br /><br />But does it support the absolutist case you seem to be making? <br /><br />If Deep States exist, they can do harm or they can do good, albeit that the good is always vitiated by the resort to force, fraud or both. Of course, this reservation might itself be considered vitiated where force and fraud already rule the roost, as was certainly the case in July 1944. <br /><br />I would, however, have thought that a member of the German officer corps who ended up in the Brownshirts would, ipso facto, have ceased to be part of the Deep State, prior to January 1933, unless, of course, he was working under cover.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-73571749634631733392017-02-26T14:21:54.516+13:002017-02-26T14:21:54.516+13:00To: Guerrilla Surgeon:
FYI - There is considerabl...To: Guerrilla Surgeon:<br /><br />FYI - There is considerable scholarship devoted to the "Deep State" phenomenon - most particularly, as I noted, in Turkey.<br /><br />Recent developments internationally have seen the Deep State analysis shift across the Atlantic, where it now provides a useful tool for explaining the institutional responses to Trump.<br /><br />You may dispute the usefulness and accuracy of this analysis, GS - that is your prerogative - but you may not insult me, or attempt to browbeat me into giving it up.<br /><br />The Deep State has become a "thing" in contemporary political debate. Get used to it.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-74707315624855808342017-02-26T11:45:50.855+13:002017-02-26T11:45:50.855+13:00No seriously, I think such a 'thing' does ...No seriously, I think such a 'thing' does exist and it is a good thing. Yet it actually is not a 'thing' or an institution or instrument. It is the instinct of the solid core of the establishment. Those in powerful positions who can in a crisis act in unison without meeting or perhaps even communicating with one another. Entirely paternalistic for sure but just as children need fathers who look out for them, show them how to live and stop them stepping out into thin air, so can and does a nation.Charles Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64204371910391214772017-02-26T11:08:28.165+13:002017-02-26T11:08:28.165+13:00Victor, nice topics to put the discussion of ethic...Victor, nice topics to put the discussion of ethics to. When I visited the Museum of German history in Berlin there was a section on the Freikorps...who transition seamlessly from officer class to covert army to Brown Shirts. Continuity. <br /><br />Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20659699722719089532017-02-26T11:03:07.356+13:002017-02-26T11:03:07.356+13:00I can't see how constructive criticism of the ...I can't see how constructive criticism of the term "deep state" can be considered trolling. Trolling involves trying to work someone up into a frenzy by making outrageous statements, which I have this far as I can see, not done. I was just perhaps rather more forcefully stating what David Stone did above. The concept of "deep state" is not something that should be thrown around without some "deep thought" about its nature and aims. And about whether it actually exists in the sense that you seem to believe it does – or not. And in my opinion you haven't done enough of this.<br />Something which you accused me of a little while ago – lack of scholarship. And I sincerely believe that if what I said in my last comment was trolling, then so was your accusation. Assuming you can be a troll on your own blog :).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-19283396344942933372017-02-26T09:04:14.807+13:002017-02-26T09:04:14.807+13:00To: Guerilla Surgeon.
A gentle reminder, GS, that...To: Guerilla Surgeon.<br /><br />A gentle reminder, GS, that trolling is not permitted on Bowalley Road.<br /><br />If you wish to indulge in that activity, please go somewhere else.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-30426098622928744452017-02-26T08:47:26.247+13:002017-02-26T08:47:26.247+13:00Sounds like a damn good this this Deep State whats...Sounds like a damn good this this Deep State whatsit. Can I join?<br />And if it doesn't exist it should be invented. Charles Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-49659518055952472017-02-25T15:12:07.145+13:002017-02-25T15:12:07.145+13:00Nick J
A further thought.
My previous post was p...Nick J<br /><br />A further thought.<br /><br />My previous post was posited on the notion that the "brotherhood" of German officers (largely but by no means exclusively of aristocratic origins) along with military intelligence organisations recruited from that brotherhood and diplomats, senior public servants and religious leaders of similar social origins, tastes and education, collectively constituted a "deep state".<br /><br />If I'm wrong, then the morality of the July plot is irrelevant to this discussion. But, of course, it remains wholly relevant to any discussion of the ethical limits of obedience, when faced with a totally immoral, albeit legally constituted, political authority. <br /><br />On a personal note, may I add that I revolt entirely against the notion that Sophie Scholl's actions might be justifiable but those of Claus von Stauffenberg are not. <br /><br />Who am I to judge between people of such outstanding courage and integrity? Yet such a distinction seems implicit in your absolutist view of the subordination of the deep state to its political masters.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-7094704897784015762017-02-25T14:03:27.817+13:002017-02-25T14:03:27.817+13:00Nick J
"When is it ethical for a "deep ...Nick J<br /><br />"When is it ethical for a "deep state" organ to intervene? The answer is never, it is not democratic and ultimately self serving."<br /><br />I don't think I could be as categorical as you. I believe that, by any measure, those members of the German officer corps, diplomatic service, intelligence services et al, who conspired to end the genocidal regime that was leading their country to destruction, were justified in their actions and that it was a vast pity that they failed.<br /><br />Of course, people from within these circles had been partially instrumental in the regime's establishment and in its earlier spate of diplomatic and military successes. Many of them, moreover, shared, in some measure at least, the racist and imperialist assumptions of the regime. Had they succeeded, peace would not have been a forgone conclusion, particularly if they had sought to exploit divisions within the allied coalition. <br /><br />Even so, by my reckoning, they were justified. And,though they failed, they commenced the long and painful process by which their country regained its lost honour. <br /><br />Deciding the moral calculus in political matters can be hazardous. Normally, it might simply be a case of legality or popular consensus. But, sometimes, such considerations fail to address the enormity or the complexity of what's going on.<br /><br />And, yes, even so, I would agree, the question remains of "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" <br /><br />Has a deep state ever removed a surface state without a nudge from outside? Dunno. I'll have to think about that.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-78740957002929767762017-02-25T12:27:10.500+13:002017-02-25T12:27:10.500+13:00Hi Chris
In answering G S you identify the d...Hi Chris<br /><br /> In answering G S you identify the deep state as the core institutions named, OK. Then you identify a belief they hold concerning "political aims and objectives" . Who's political aims and objectives? And in "answering in the affirmative" do you affirm the validity of their suppression of them, or do you just confirm that these institutions hold these beliefs? I have to concentrate hard on the text to follow through to an understanding and others might too.<br />Cheers D J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86253370775926281122017-02-25T11:09:18.079+13:002017-02-25T11:09:18.079+13:00Well, GS, I thought I'd made the nature of the...Well, GS, I thought I'd made the nature of the Deep State pretty clear within the text.<br /><br />This passage, in particular, should have alerted you to the actors involved - and their motivation:<br /><br />"No modern state considers it prudent to leave its people defenceless against either invasion from without or subversion from within. The more important question, however, is whether or not the core institutions of the state: the armed services, the secret services, police, judiciary and senior civil servants believe there to be certain political aims and objectives so contrary to the constitutive ethos of the state that they must be suppressed – at any cost."<br /><br />Obviously, I would answer "the more important question" in the affirmative.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-37678692626292839212017-02-25T08:16:55.591+13:002017-02-25T08:16:55.591+13:00Perhaps one of you guys who are throwing the "...Perhaps one of you guys who are throwing the "deep state" expression around could have a crack at defining it for me?Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1928040759205473412017-02-24T16:28:51.191+13:002017-02-24T16:28:51.191+13:00Perhaps I was so inured to the blandishments of th...Perhaps I was so inured to the blandishments of the deep state and had incorporated them into my whole political ethos, that I was simply blind to it!Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66036255078566424342017-02-24T13:21:19.507+13:002017-02-24T13:21:19.507+13:00Further to this, now that I've calmed down jus...Further to this, now that I've calmed down just a bit. I'm not at all sure why we are arguing, except I seem to have offended you by agreeing with Wayne. Perhaps I could sum up my attitude a little more succinctly. New Zealand may have had a nascent 'deep state'. This 'deep state' may indeed have influenced public opinion on the matter of land confiscations and purchases. But it is not necessary or sufficient as a cause of the various wars and confiscations post eighteen sixty. Because public opinion, and the opinions of its elected representatives were pretty much identical to those of the 'deep state'. And I doubt somehow if anything needed to be "sexed up". There were enough loud voices in eighteen sixty expressing the idea that the King movement should be put down. And the invasion of eighteen sixty-three was pretty much a continuation of the fighting in eighteen sixty.<br /><br />And I must confess a rather deep aversion to the expression "deep state" it's one of those ill-defined platitudes de jour, which seems now to be responsible for everything governments do that we don't like. Academics mostly don't use it, except in articles about Turkey in the nineteen nineties, even when they are writing about its actions. And I think it's wrong to assume somehow has everyone seems to, that it's a monolithic organisation. It's simply a bunch of competing bureaucracies, that don't necessarily have a lot in common.<br />I'm not necessarily saying that conspiracies don't exist, but I think we have to treat them individually, rather than as some vast network of evil organisations determined to subvert the state. And much of what passes for deep state actions are simply the normal workings of the bureaucracy. As anyone who's ever watched yes Minister would know.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10150726869856957812017-02-24T13:00:06.297+13:002017-02-24T13:00:06.297+13:00Victor, I am unsure about the Nazi regimes ongoing...Victor, I am unsure about the Nazi regimes ongoing legitimacy, they were however "legitimate" by dint of electoral success in extremely trying times. It seems to me that like the Russian communists they inherited a "deep state" apparatus from the prior states. Gestapo, KGB, etc all have a longer term existence separate to the regimes they supported. Now we have a KGB man running the successor state to the USSR, his enforcers are merely another iteration of the same organisation. <br /><br />I have yet to see a "deep state" organisation subvert their government, I have however seen the "imperial" deep sate organs like the CIA dominate vassal states security organs. In that category there is suspicion of CIA "assistance" to remove the Labour government in 1975, and the curious case of Gough Whitlam.<br /><br />When is it ethical for a "deep state" organ to intervene? The answer is never, it is not democratic and ultimately self serving. "Spooks" dont really care who pays so long as they are, they arew amoral which by definition excludes ethics. And as I stated before to get a short term result by utilising their "services" is to slip on the Ring of Sauron. You become hostage to the super thugs.Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59786223622845404262017-02-24T08:20:42.040+13:002017-02-24T08:20:42.040+13:00Considering New Zealand only had very limited demo...Considering New Zealand only had very limited democracy at the time, I'm not sure that the word deep state should be applied. There really was no need to massage public opinion. All Europeans considered that Maori land would continue to become available for settlement. So if there was a deep state – and it must have been fairly primitive is you said – it really didn't need to justify a great deal. Because settler land hunger was the driving force. Indeed, the major opposition came from parts of the Anglican Church early on. But only parts. There was a major war of ideas in which the the ordinary political organs of the state took full part. The needs of European settlers took precedence here. Even the church was urging Maori to sell land – presumably in order to avoid a clash. <br />I think you really have to extend the concept of deep state beyond the original meaning to come to your conclusions.<br /><br />Incidentally, historians are by no means monolithic on this topic.<br /><br />And:<br />“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.” Worth repeating.<br /><br />So intolerance of intolerance is still intolerance? But still necessary for a free and open society.<br /><br />"Nobody gets a free pass."<br /><br />Including you.<br />Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82874613740745327682017-02-23T23:15:20.465+13:002017-02-23T23:15:20.465+13:00Just correcting my previous post.....
It was, of ...Just correcting my previous post.....<br /><br />It was, of course, incorrect of me to suggest that, in July 1944, the Prusso-German deep state tried to get rid of an elected government, as opposed to a government which owed its existence to a mixture of popular appeal, terror and an earlier spate of deep state interventions and manipulations.<br /><br />But the point remains that there are extreme times when it might be ethical for a deep state to abandon its subservience to the surface state in order to prevent catastrophe. <br /><br />I don't think such a situation currently prevails in the US. But, in a few years' time, it might.Victornoreply@blogger.com