tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post5749451779825730803..comments2024-03-29T00:44:42.046+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: DIRT ALERT! - Are The Greens And Labour About To Become The Targets Of A Major Negative Advertising Campaign?Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70681698277498048592014-09-05T13:39:49.963+12:002014-09-05T13:39:49.963+12:00Jigsaw
Infometrics' review of the fiscal impa...Jigsaw<br /><br />Infometrics' review of the fiscal impact of Green Party Policies states that these policies should lead to "moderately higher operating balances, lower debt and higher net worth outcomes than forcast in the BEFU". <br /><br />You can find this document on the web. As you would expect, it's filled with sensible caveats. But most of them suggest there might be a slightly better fiscal outcome than that stated above.<br /><br />May I add that I don't think the Socialist Unity Party in East Germany or the CPSU ever commissioned an independent review of this type. Nor am I sure that the New Zealand Labour Party ever did so in its glory days but I'm open to correction on that point.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22471007751415365182014-09-04T20:17:00.208+12:002014-09-04T20:17:00.208+12:00GS and Victor-Even if you think that the taxpayers...GS and Victor-Even if you think that the taxpayers union is a right wing hotbed of misinformation the costing of the Greens promises at $4.9 Billion can't be all that far out and even if it is how about Labour at around the same-all for the same things?<br />I doubt it-and that means that they will together be substantially more, unless they spend the total they will have to compromise which should be fun.<br />Of course we all think we are right-part of the human condition<br />after all. Having been a socialist in my dark, distant and foolish past perhaps gives me an additional insight...you think?Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59269340965314095622014-09-04T14:32:18.118+12:002014-09-04T14:32:18.118+12:00Jigsaw
I acknowledge my last line was ad hominem ...Jigsaw<br /><br />I acknowledge my last line was ad hominem and apologise.<br /><br />I do think you're gullible and accept you think the same of me.<br /><br />But I'm still looking for a shred of evidence that the Greens will take us on the the Autobahn all the way to the DDR.<br /><br />And, by the way, thanks for not mentioning North Korea. It must have been tempting.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-81408037072902036842014-09-04T13:03:05.387+12:002014-09-04T13:03:05.387+12:00Actually jigsaw I got most of my stuff from the &q...Actually jigsaw I got most of my stuff from the "lamestream media". And while many journalists may be a bit left-wing, most of their bosses aren't, and that's reflected in the content of most news sources. Why the hell I would want to go to the taxpayers union – a hotbed of right wingnuts – I fail to see. They never let facts get in the way of a good argument. I must've agree with you about politicians and meetings though, there far too stage-managed these days with little room for dissent. Just like the whale oil blog :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-79765796732108229992014-09-04T10:37:56.150+12:002014-09-04T10:37:56.150+12:00GS - Actually the bribometre shows that the Greens...GS - Actually the bribometre shows that the Greens' promises so far total $4.906 billion or $2,893.03 per household. No doubt you will dispute this -fine but quote your sources as well. I suspect you will also say that the 'rich pricks' will be taxed more to cover that but mostly that would just give extra work to those who would look for ways around such high taxes. Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66687885951393828672014-09-04T10:20:33.584+12:002014-09-04T10:20:33.584+12:00GS - You should try the bribeometre on the Taxpaye...GS - You should try the bribeometre on the Taxpayers Union website but I suspect that you stick pretty close to left journalists. Its not just the billions they want to throw at problems but the way in which they do it that will be the worst problem. Couple that with depressed business activity and its an experiement most New Zealanders (thankfully) have no wish to try. You also ignore their previous unworkable ideas. I would love to have been in the position to heckle Muldoon-the great socialist- but never was near him. Did heckle Mabel Howard as a teenager but back then politicians had street corner meetings no the staged events as they do today. You really shouldn't believe all that the Greens say......<br />Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-65749674061727750442014-09-04T07:08:04.482+12:002014-09-04T07:08:04.482+12:00Okay jigsaw, let's ignore ad hominem for the m...Okay jigsaw, let's ignore ad hominem for the moment and look at your facts – vague though they are.<br />Huge taxes? They have proposed modest tax increases for those on large incomes.<br />Much increased welfare? I suspect if it was that much increased people would be asking where the money is to come from. There haven't been huge cries of show is the money yet, so I suspect it has been costed reasonably well.<br />I wouldn't mind quite so much if you provided some figures for your rather exaggerated claims, but this is just scaremongering. You always use emotive language to describe the Greens rather than attempting to give us facts.<br />Harangued on the street? God 's lucky you never crossed Muldoon :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-85706540113320526512014-09-03T20:18:48.886+12:002014-09-03T20:18:48.886+12:00You see Victor-I could say the same thing about yo...You see Victor-I could say the same thing about your being gullible but that's just the sort of ad hominem argument that GS uses. The Greens are scary and of course their policies of huge taxes and much increased welfare to say nothing of their anti-business stance would hurt the country. Thing is it's not going to be the same as last time(should they form part of a Labour/Greens/someoneelse) government). They will be a much bigger part. On current polling they will have some 21 MPs to labour's perhaps 34 and they would have far more power. YOU may be of the opinion that they are pleasant people but having been harangued on the street by one of their MPs for daring to protest against their policies I don't share you opinion.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-34058776035973660522014-09-03T17:50:46.414+12:002014-09-03T17:50:46.414+12:00The main thing I have against the Greens is their ...The main thing I have against the Greens is their lack of regard for science and the promotion of quack medicines. But even this seems to be changing – their policy on quackery seems to have been moderated somewhat according to their spokesman. I must confess they're looking more and more attractive to me, given the Internet / Mana thing and the fact that they seem to be relatively untainted by scandal. In the past I've avoided them for various reasons, one being that I could never vote for someone who thought that possum peppering was a thing :-). But she's gone anyway so hopefully the rest have come to their senses. And I would just like to say yet again – what they want and what they say they will get politically, and what they will actually end up with could easily be 2 different things, one could say probably :-). And since when has any major party given away something really important to a minor one. I suppose you might argue for Winston's foreign affairs, but it's not nearly as powerful a ministry as finance. Be interesting to see if they actually get environment though :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-87067713689344741902014-09-03T12:13:22.952+12:002014-09-03T12:13:22.952+12:00Jigsaw
I agree with you that people are scared of...Jigsaw<br /><br />I agree with you that people are scared of the Greens.<br /><br />The question remains, though, as to whether these fears are justified. <br /><br />There's nothing much in their policies that would harm our economy and much therein that would be economically beneficial(e.g. an emphasis on smart technology and sustainability, along with a commitment to the integrity of Brand New Zealand).<br /><br />The party's leadership, meanwhile, is professional, personable and apparently responsible, both fiscally and otherwise, although as yet untested in high office.<br /><br />They are also excellent parliamentarians and steeped in the consensual and democratic traditions of this and other Anglophone countries. <br /><br />Not only are they not "Dancing Cossacks". They even seem (mercifully) to have given up on Morris Dancing. <br /><br />But, of course, it's useful for an intellectually bankrupt and ethically tainted government and its supporters to pretend that these intelligent, responsible and (as politicians go) rather pleasant people constitute some sort of threat to the mighty if crumbling edifice of Western Civilization. <br /><br />And there will always be gullible souls who will believe these prophets of doom. Apparently, you're one of them.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45798597297914482562014-09-03T09:46:41.253+12:002014-09-03T09:46:41.253+12:00GS- The Greens have stated openly that they expect...GS- The Greens have stated openly that they expect to get 5-7 of the cabinet posts and why would they not? Have you not noticed how much many in Labour loathe the Greens and with good reason as they are eating out the left of Labour all the time.<br />Why do you think that so much of the what is coming off National is not going to Labour or the Greens but to the minor parties-people are just very afraid that the Greens will have a great deal of power in a Labour/Greens government which I believe if it happens will in fact not go the whole term but will end in infighting. <br />Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18256150462238435502014-09-02T20:48:23.256+12:002014-09-02T20:48:23.256+12:00Owen, Owen
This is getting tedious as well as sil...Owen, Owen<br /><br />This is getting tedious as well as silly.<br /><br />The environment was a mess in East Germany because the Communist Party wasn't interested in the environment.<br /><br />But it WAS interested in mining lignite and it succeeded thereat, thus further degrading the said environment.<br /><br />So an obvious moral is that we need to look after the environment and think a bit more carefully about the desirability of lignite mining.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-68243293875501669122014-09-02T20:12:58.658+12:002014-09-02T20:12:58.658+12:00Jigsaw, the whole idea of the Greens having politi...Jigsaw, the whole idea of the Greens having political power is rather silly. Not in the way you mean though. If labour gets enough votes to form a government the Greens will bargain hard about what they want, but Labour will definitely not give them everything they want. The Greens have not been immoderate in the past. As I remember it, they were quite sensible in cooperating with previous Labour governments even if they were not actually in them. You do get your knickers in a twist about stuff. Without any good reason it seems to me.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-37073114640257202462014-09-02T19:06:35.926+12:002014-09-02T19:06:35.926+12:00Watermelon people????? Wha?Watermelon people????? Wha?Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-79079289648040533452014-09-02T17:54:43.481+12:002014-09-02T17:54:43.481+12:00The Greens are quite simply the biggest bunch of p...The Greens are quite simply the biggest bunch of people totally unsuited to have any political power at all. Of course they will become authoritarian as their polices bite -they will become the very epitome of the end justifying the means as they attempt to balance their extreme spending with a contraction in business activity that will result from their policies. We cannot now have a Labour government without the Greens-the very people who have been white-anting Labour from the left these many years. As a country we simply can't afford to experience with these watermelon people.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-3181280712663786542014-09-02T16:39:47.646+12:002014-09-02T16:39:47.646+12:00Ah Chris, always the final arbiter on such matters...Ah Chris, always the final arbiter on such matters as whether there is any comparison between East Germany and the Greens. If comparison is wrong and you say it is wrong it must be wrong. No need for a debate? <br /><br />I went to East Germany before the wall came down more than once. I have been back since. You can label their economy any way you like but it was fundamentally a socialist model. It certainly wasn't at the other end of the spectrum. The same policy principles of big, intrusive government, debilitating regulation, high taxes, picking winners that the Green party advocates. I have also traveled to other countries where various brands of socialism reigned. I am quite partial to the environmental Kuznets curve. It has a lot of supporting evidence. Poor socialist countries simply cannot afford to maintain a clean environment. Owennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90786002001457888732014-09-02T16:31:12.198+12:002014-09-02T16:31:12.198+12:00Owen
I'm sorry to have misread your post.
A ...Owen<br /><br />I'm sorry to have misread your post.<br /><br />A second look reveals that you think the former DDR really IS relevant to a discussion of environmentalism in New Zealand.<br /><br />My misreading was based on the obvious misconception that I was dealing with someone incapable of posing such an absurd argument.<br /><br />My apologies for under-estimating you. I won't do so again.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57807131945486228812014-09-02T15:16:12.408+12:002014-09-02T15:16:12.408+12:00Owen
I'm glad you acknowlege that the former ...Owen<br /><br />I'm glad you acknowlege that the former DDR is irrelevant to this debate.<br /><br />So, of course, should be the rest of the Soviet Block and other onetime Soviet-friendly socialist countries.<br /><br />The whole Soviet model was posited on humanity's collective conquest of nature, Marx-Leninism being (inter alia) a malign form of early twentieth century modernism. <br /><br />Urbanism, gigantism and production fetishism were part of its core being. No wonder that dictatorial regimes devoted to this creed created ecological catastrophes on a vast scale.<br /><br />In contrast, environmentalists seek to work with nature rather than against it. And, by the way, many of their number played a significant role in the undermining of the Pax Sovietica during the 1980s.<br /><br />Like you, I have extensive knowledge of Eastern and Central Europe, most of it dating back to the Communist epoch. I saw for myself how hyper-extractive, reckless pro-growth-at-all-costs policies helped degrade environments.<br /><br />But I also saw how Social Market economies, such as that of the then West Germany, managed to turn back the polluting tide through sensible, people-friendly, democratically-engendered, environmental policies. And, of course, none of this was achieved without regulation. <br /><br />Meanwhile, I frankly don't care what ideological high jinks various prominent Greens may have got up to when young. I freely admit to having been a 14 year old Tory, a 15 year old Trotskyite and a 16 year old Anarchist. In comparison, McGillacuddy seems rather tame, don't you think?Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45040484671825148712014-09-02T14:58:56.951+12:002014-09-02T14:58:56.951+12:00"This would be the most insane sentence I hav..."This would be the most insane sentence I have read on the internet in a very long time and the competition has been fierce."<br />I have to agree with that. I can't see what all the fuss is about the Greens, they are very middle-class. Their left-wing seems to have been marginalised. They're also a damn site more democratic than most political parties I think. <br />The idea that they are just communists in drag is ludicrous :-). It says nothing for the intellectual capacity of anyone making those statements in fact.<br />Another statement that makes me worry about intellectual capacity on the right is<br /><br />"certainly not related to Colin King Ansell. He's racist. I'm anti-racist."<br /><br />You don't inherit bigoted opinions through bloodlines necessarily :-). Though I noticed John, that you only said you weren't racist - not extremely right-wing :-).<br />The whole idea of Communist countries being extremely polluted is a strawman anyway. One major reason that modern democracies aren't polluted is the fact that much of their industry has gone. <br />To China – which is fairly heavily polluted, but – is a guided economy, will which could probably make an executive decision to reduce pollution, rather than wait around for businesses to do it. Not saying it's right mind.<br />But still, intellectual argument is all very well and I quite enjoy it, but I don't kid myself I'm changing any minds here. Logic doesn't work on true believers :-).<br />Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64313220686950684582014-09-02T14:17:57.187+12:002014-09-02T14:17:57.187+12:00To: Owen (or is it John?)
This posting was writte...To: Owen (or is it John?)<br /><br />This posting was written on the basis of an e-mail sent to a person called John Third.<br /><br />I had no idea who John Third was or why his e-mail had come to me.<br /><br />I did a little digging and believed I had enough to put something up on the blog.<br /><br />When I was in a position to take John Third's call I took it and, after adding his information to that already supplied to me by Idiot/Savant from No Right Turn, updated the posting accordingly.<br /><br />John Ansell then confirmed his involvement. Again, the posting was updated.<br /><br />Throughout I have behaved as courteously and professionally as I know how.<br /><br />You should not, however, be surprised if people, recalling the Exclusive Brethren's anti-Green campaign of 2005, respond robustly to claims that the NZ Greens are no better than the East-German communists.<br /><br />That sort of reds-under-the-bed argument deserves all the scorn it quite rightly receives.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59695491189557014002014-09-02T13:50:39.787+12:002014-09-02T13:50:39.787+12:00Guerilla Surgeon: certainly not related to Colin K...Guerilla Surgeon: certainly not related to Colin King Ansell. He's racist. I'm anti-racist.John Ansellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-11611638370416577412014-09-02T12:19:13.424+12:002014-09-02T12:19:13.424+12:00C'mon Mr Trotter, The Opinion is disappointed ...C'mon Mr Trotter, The Opinion is disappointed with your blog post. As we said when we returned your call we have respect for you, have been regular readers and criticise the Dompost for discontinuing your contributions. While you have made no secret of your advocacy for the left you have done so in a reasoned way that contributes to the contest of ideas that is the hallmark of proper Politics. However if we were marking your effort, on the Opinion, we would have to score you "could do better" I did respond to your call but you were not picking up. I called you again at the first opportunity Saturday morning. The Opinion Partnership was from the beginning in the public domain and registered with the Electoral Commission as your Helen Clarke legislated. Nothing "secret". We have not broken the law, such as using stolen emails. "Dirty politics" - you are joking?? We are appalled by the one-sided scrutiny currently being applied by mainstream media. There is nocomparison with the campaign we have created and the antics of Hager/Slater haters, law-breakers,character assassins. We feel you are being uncharacteristically hysterical.<br /><br />We will continue to point out to voters that a Labour government by implication means 30% of the cabinet positions will be held by the Green party. It is a matter of public record that Russel Norman is demanding to be Minister of Finance and that their party also believe they should hold the deputy Prime Ministership. We can find no record of Russel Norman disavowing his Marxist/Leninist views nor Metiria Turei distancing herself from the idiocy of the McGillacuddy Serious Party and Aoteoroa Legalise Cannabis Party, both of which she was a candidate for. If mainstream media will not analyse in any depth the position taken by the Green party we will. Voters should know the role Greens have played here and around the world and the negative effect their deeply socialist policies can have. There is not a single case whwew anyone can point to where socialist regimes have led to improved environmental outcomes. We have both worked in post-Soviet countries around the world and can assure you that poverty is the worst polluter and socialist regime's have economically collapsed worldwide causing extreme poverty. Environmentalism and Socialist response regimes are an Oxymoron. That emails were sent from a disused computor because the sender's normal computor holds sensitive personal and commercial material and with hackers now able and determined to break into and publish any person's private business with impunity and no apparent public opprobrium, it was deemed to be a more responsible way to circulate material. While we respect your professionalism and experience as a serious writer/journalist we would have thought you might focus on the content rather than seek to attack the messenger. John Third and Owen JenningsOwennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4316397129172583022014-09-02T12:15:05.860+12:002014-09-02T12:15:05.860+12:00The only problem with your statement, Owen, is tha...The only problem with your statement, Owen, is that it is utterly and completely wrong.<br /><br />To equate the New Zealand Greens with the Socialist Unity Party of the GDR is absurd.<br /><br />The Greens are staunch upholders of the democratic rights of New Zealanders - and I defy you to produce the slightest probative evidence which suggests otherwise.<br /><br />The Right's inability to distinguish the totalitarian pretensions of Stalinism from an environmentalist party's determination to more effectively regulate the exploitation of our natural environment (a goal supported by over 70 percent of voters) is not only astonishing - it is deeply troubling.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-61257581308570931852014-09-02T11:15:50.827+12:002014-09-02T11:15:50.827+12:00Victor - East Germany is absolutely relevant. The...Victor - East Germany is absolutely relevant. The point we make is that socialist dominated governments despite heroic claims of being near perfect invariably oversee the most degraded environments. The Greens are clearly heavily into state domination, higher taxes, removal of private property rights and bloated bureaucracy all the elements present in East Germany. Owennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-19116913237147210552014-09-02T09:29:40.731+12:002014-09-02T09:29:40.731+12:00What I find is that many Green supporters, even yo...What I find is that many Green supporters, even young people working for Greenpeace, are gullible dupes who can actually be reached with challenges backed up with facts, as people like John Ansell do.<br /><br />None of them have ever heard of Patrick Moore or Bjorn Lomborg; and I always suggest to them that it is not a good sign when a movement is so desperately anxious to dissuade you from actually reading anything "heretical". This is how medieval theocracies work.<br /><br />In contrast, Martin Luther was an early representative of the Reformation/enlightenment tradition of "letting people publish, letting people read, and letting the truth become manifest".<br /><br />There is not a good track record anywhere in history for movements and regimes that want to stop you reading heretical stuff for whatever claimed reason. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com