tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post5873135761584447188..comments2024-03-29T03:41:12.499+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Know Thy FriendsChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86516511271076134142010-03-05T15:01:29.976+13:002010-03-05T15:01:29.976+13:00"Robert Hughes has, for example, spoken of th..."Robert Hughes has, for example, spoken of the festering darkness in the centre of the white aussie soul"<br /><br />Wow. And here was me envying my Australian cousins for their great lifestyle and practical attitudes, all along unaware that a "festering darkness" is in the centre of their white souls.<br /><br />I am also interested by this idea of ditching civilisation because the industrial revolution was mistake, juxtaposed to the notion that people ought to look 'a bit deeper at their inherited values and assumptions'. And here was I, beginning to believe that the 'green, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist' movement was one of the all time greatest set of inherited, undebated and uncritical assumptions.<br /><br />But your argument that pre-industrial revoloution, pre englightenment dark ages Europe is a better model to base our society on certainly turned me around on that.STChttp://trademe.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10351412224294267162010-03-03T10:14:56.206+13:002010-03-03T10:14:56.206+13:00Chris, you were probably being ironic, but "a...Chris, you were probably being ironic, but "advantageous" for who?<br /><br />Not only was colonial conquest disadvantageous for the indigenous people, but also for the descendents of the colonisers.<br /><br />Robert Hughes has, for example, spoken of the festering darkness in the centre of the white aussie soul. It derives, he says, from the simple fact they can't properly confront what their ancestors did, let alone think about proper redress. White racism, both in Australia and the States, is psychologically under-pinned by this massive denial.<br /><br />Give me the NZ situation anyday over that.<br /><br />IMHO, again, I think the approach of many Maori so-called "radicals" are often deeply misconstrued. I regard, as Pakeha myself, the words of Mutu and Jackson as a challenge. They are putting the ideas out there and challenging others to look a bit deeper at their inherited values and assumptions. Not unlike Brecht they are saying: "Change the world. It needs it."<br /><br />Perhaps we Pakeha on the left need to start looking back a bit further than Marx, the industrial revolution and commodity society (before there was "a left"), when the Western way of life wasn't so different from pre-Contact Maori society.<br /><br />Maybe we could think about becoming modern non-moderns again?mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31615686235695910122010-03-03T09:21:55.594+13:002010-03-03T09:21:55.594+13:00Yes, Mike, there was a treaty - and it is New Zeal...Yes, Mike, there was a treaty - and it is New Zealand's glory and pride. For it would, indeed, have been easier and much more advantageous (in the long term) to have embraced the same exterminist policies as the Americans and Australians. <br /><br />Anon #2 is right, however, to draw our attention to the Maori tradition of rule by right of conquest. It was an argument put forward to the Native Land Court well after the signing of the Treaty - in justification for the extinction of all Moriori claims to the Chathams, for example.<br /><br />I can understand the unease of those Pakeha who survey our recent history and wonder whether both races are working from the same set of basic assumptions re: biculturalism. <br /><br />When I hear the words of Margaret Mutu and Moana Jackson - I wonder too.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-34420359052512697142010-03-03T07:28:46.363+13:002010-03-03T07:28:46.363+13:00Anon #2:
That whole "ownership by conquest&q...Anon #2:<br /><br />That whole "ownership by conquest" argument IMHO betrays a weird wishful fantasising: "Oh if only we had just straight out conquered New Zealand instead of this wishy-washy treaty thing... Oh if only we'd been more like the yanks/aussies and kind of got rid of our injuns..."<br /><br />But, no, there was a treaty. Which was then broken by the crown in a myriad of ways. The miracle is that this is being redressed after 140 years. Seems quite positive.<br /><br />As far as pre-contact Maori tradition goes. Well, there was conquest, yes, but treaties too, intermarriages, alliances etc. etc. These are the more appropriate things to compare.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77829889934284728152010-03-02T17:42:22.712+13:002010-03-02T17:42:22.712+13:00Well Anonymous - And how about ownership by conque...Well Anonymous - And how about ownership by conquest then? By means fair or foul - seemed fair enough in the day.<br />To the winner the spoils?<br />Keep the home fires burning whilst you may ay?<br />Moanas theory needs to encompass all of Maori traditions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-89241432417739447672010-03-01T18:57:33.494+13:002010-03-01T18:57:33.494+13:00Chris - putting aside your digs at the 'far-le...Chris - putting aside your digs at the 'far-left' and 'Maori nationalists', did it ever occur to you that the Maori Party may be trying to tackle the difficult issue of resolving land theft & Treaty breaches perpetrated by the government that now claims the right to settle those disputes? That makes for a very one-sided situation. <br /><br />A straight revocation of Labour's foreshore law means iwi and hapu have to prove their 'unbroken ownership/occupation' of the foreshore & seabed to the very Crown courts that helped disposess them in the first place. And proving unbroken use of the land Maori were often kicked off is almost laughably impossible.<br /><br />I think you will find it is this issue that causes Hone and others to talk of simply recognising these 'self-evident truths' we all know. <br /><br />How about the Crown just recognising that iwi & hapu held all the foreshore & seabed as at 1840, give full fee simple title to a trust jointly owned by those iwi (they can resolve boundary disputes themselves over the years), and the Crown lease back the foreshore and seabed as they need (for public access, minerals mining, etc) at either peppercorn or commerical rates - depending on whether it was a public or commercial need for access? I reckon most Maori and the Maori Party could live with that, as could most pakeha.<br /><br />Better that revoking 'hater Helen's' Foreshore & Seabed Act just to replace it with another ripoff act... that would rip apart the relationship between Maori Party and National (hmmm. maybe every cloud does have a silver lining).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76835244756210524242010-02-27T14:57:51.571+13:002010-02-27T14:57:51.571+13:00Thanks Chris. That's interesting. I was rela...Thanks Chris. That's interesting. I was relatively new to New Zealand at that point and may have missed the bl..ding obvious.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66362070012495489262010-02-27T14:39:37.304+13:002010-02-27T14:39:37.304+13:00That's all quite true, Victor.
I guess the p...That's all quite true, Victor. <br /><br />I guess the point I'm making is that the Founding Conference of the NLP was intended to launch a "new" Labour Party, a left social-democratic party ready to embrace the policies of the successful North European states. <br /><br />The intrusion of the Far Left destroyed that opportunity, and forced Jim Anderton to mask the NLP's "far-left" reputation with the coalition of parties that was the Alliance.<br /><br />What this meant in practice was that, come MMP, the best candidates available - outstanding individuals like Prof. Jim Flynn, for example - were forced to make way for second-raters from the upper ranks of the Alliance's truly eccentric coalition partners (the Democrats, Mana Motuhake, the Liberals).<br /><br />It was this fatal weakness that prevented the Alliance from building up the critical mass of truly talented political leaders who could have mounted a really serious challenge to the political hegemony of right-wing Labourism in New Zealand.<br /><br />Imagine how far to the Left a party like that could have shifted the centre of political gravity in this country!<br /><br />Jim's failure to understand who and what he was dealing with cost New Zealand dearly.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45996692707235959022010-02-27T13:53:07.020+13:002010-02-27T13:53:07.020+13:00Chris
I largely agree with your analysis
But I&#...Chris<br /><br />I largely agree with your analysis<br /><br />But I'm not sure I agree that the NLP never recovered from the intrusion of infantile leftists in 1989.<br /><br />I don't have your insider knowledge but I always had the impression that the NLP basically ran the Alliance, which was, for several years, the single most successful 'third party' of recent times and which came close to eclipsing Labour as the main, effective opposition to the Bolger government. <br /><br />The Alliance also had an ability to appeal across class and ideology to people who would never have dreamed of voting Labout, e.g. the Tamaki blue rinse brigade.<br /><br />And, of course, the Alliance (and hence the NLP) played a big role in drawing Labour back to the middle ground after the right-wing excesses of the 80s and 90s. <br /><br />Some failure!Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25407314825310728012010-02-26T17:56:12.623+13:002010-02-26T17:56:12.623+13:00Most New Zealanders know well that radical Maori a...Most New Zealanders know well that radical Maori are an enemy of our Nation.<br /><br />We don't mind what Harawira made mention in his speech, <br />or the idiotic Moana Jackson gobbledygook title claim which basically says that <br />"if the whole world already knows that Maori people were here first,<br /> [ and therefore own everything] , <br />then lets stop being ridiculous by making Maori go to court to prove it"<br />and we don't care that<br />"Ms McMeeking (32) is certainly one of the most impressive Maori leaders to have emerged from the Treaty settlement process of the 1990s"<br /><br />The foreshore is going to stay in the hands of NZ Nation care of NZ Govt for all the people and thats guaranteed Trotsky people..<br />Guaranteed.<br />Guaranteed.peterquixotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873112816453062068noreply@blogger.com