tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post6098428454687366947..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: A Disturbing PrecedentChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84767281862666747782013-11-30T15:11:43.590+13:002013-11-30T15:11:43.590+13:00Chris Trotter,
I feel that you are missing someth...Chris Trotter,<br /><br />I feel that you are missing something important here. You express fears about 'totalitarianism' (inverted commas because the term is not being used in the strict [original] sense where totalitarianism refers to State intervention - whereas in this case the State has not been involved at all) whereas you appear to have missed that WJ and JT were expressing assumptions that believe women have to dress in a certain way otherwise they cause their own rapes. This means that women are not even free to wear what they want – let alone say what they want – and this is a form of 'totalitarianism' that is occurring for women now, nevermind in the future.<br /><br />Clearly this assumption is wrong because rapes continue to occur in countries with strict dress codes that women cover up.<br /><br /><br />The other thing that has been mentioned but I really think that you have missed is regarding harm. <br /><br />Freedom is being confused with licentiousness. There are limits on the principle of freedom when living in a society and that limit is in the area where a persons actions violates others' freedom.<br /><br />With regard to 'freedom' of expression is it in keeping with principles of freedom for a person to spread ideas encouraging the abuse of others?<br /><br />I don't think so.<br /><br />To allow this type of licentiousness would lead to more violence in society and less freedom for all.<br /><br />I have little doubt that WJ and JT would support such licentiousness if explained to them in this way. I believe that didn't mean to spread something abusive, however no matter how unwitting they were in the words they chose they were spreading an idea that thankfully many realise leads directly to harm.<br /><br />I hope that they realise their mistake because it is really very important that things improve for women in this regard.<br /><br />I emphasise: I really don't think this is about silencing someone simply because a section of NZ >>disagreed<< with what was said I belive it arose from a genuine understanding about the power of >>harm<< their words and assumptions have.<br /><br />I have no doubt there is racist reactions in this country. I don't actually think this is one of them. As others have said there were substantial differences in the interviews of the numbers of interviewers who got it wrong in relation to this issue. I think it would be very sad if WJ or JT came out of the recent events with a belief that they had been treated in a racist manner because that would obstruct them from learning something very important and valuable.<br /><br />Great discussion here and lots of insightful comments that I agree with including the latest one by Mpledger. I hope you are heeding them Chris.blueleopardthinkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01300866040532850811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-91874660944431595422013-11-29T10:49:29.139+13:002013-11-29T10:49:29.139+13:00Barry said:
However sexual activity being what it ...Barry said:<br />However sexual activity being what it is, by far the safets way to prevent being raped is TO MAKE SURE YOU DONT PUT YOURSELF INTO A POSITION WHERE IT MIGHT HAPPEN.<br /><br />~~~~~~~<br />And what position is that? Old women get raped, babies get raped. <br /><br />Rapist want to rape - if a women makes herself "safe" than all she is doing is making some other women the target.<br />MPledgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15845074140006920009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18422643136780259892013-11-29T10:44:14.171+13:002013-11-29T10:44:14.171+13:00Women* who are raped don't go on national radi...Women* who are raped don't go on national radio and talk about their rape and subsequent trauma. There freedom of speech is practically non-existent because the fall-out from what they say will make their experience much worse.<br /><br />The two Maori men had all the power to say what they wanted and they used it to perpetuate the myths that keep women quiet about rape. <br /><br />I find it hard to understand your argument that people in power should have their free speech rights protected when their free speech is used to keep the least powerful quiet.<br /><br />* I did hear a women talk about her rape experience during rape awareness week on National Radio and I think it is relevant in this context that her violent rape was done by an unknown assailant during a break in.<br />MPledgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15845074140006920009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18327036546838148242013-11-28T20:38:33.275+13:002013-11-28T20:38:33.275+13:00All i would like to say on the matter,cause im not...All i would like to say on the matter,cause im not prepared to get wired into the wrong and rights of it is,that Radio Live have now got new bosses,who have taken over a basically bankrupt franchise within a week prior to this donnybrook.And maybe they decided this is not a good look for our new venture.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45656762155612377012013-11-23T10:26:48.066+13:002013-11-23T10:26:48.066+13:00Oh yeah, that's right, Don, because freedom of...Oh yeah, that's right, Don, because freedom of expression is always assisted by people who argue with loaded guns!Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-36907282535769069412013-11-23T02:12:55.372+13:002013-11-23T02:12:55.372+13:00Money talks.....Bullshit walks....and they did. Money talks.....Bullshit walks....and they did. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77179943397286039572013-11-22T19:33:53.851+13:002013-11-22T19:33:53.851+13:00"Freedom of expression is absolutely basic to..."Freedom of expression is absolutely basic to any movement which places challenging the status quo at the core of its political practice."<br /><br />Love that. <br /><br />Just don't be a maori anarchist in the bush ehDon Franksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-67460955222812261212013-11-18T22:40:34.814+13:002013-11-18T22:40:34.814+13:00Yes Chris, there are those of us who are normally ...Yes Chris, there are those of us who are normally on the the other side of the political divide who salute you on this occasion.Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46049465809044376762013-11-18T22:18:52.232+13:002013-11-18T22:18:52.232+13:00This debate between for example Chris and Giovanni...This debate between for example Chris and Giovanni perfectly maps the plate boundary between traditional Labour and it's current incarnation. Something I suspect Cunnliffe understands. <br />The rupture with lower paid blue collar workers occurred with the recognition among the university branches of the LP that blue collar workers were social conservatives and an obstacle to cultural diversity and identity politics in general. I well remember the "night of the long knives" when the cloth cap image was abandoned and a new generation of "university types" dominated Labour politics. Their new "sophisticated" view of values effectively disenfranchised the traditional core of party support. The closure of suburban branches was part of the same process. Many of the "New - Third Way" members were indistinguishable from Libertarians who had a vested interest in radical individualism. This resulted in a migration path into the ACT Party. The welfare of the working classes has always and remains collective action and contrary to recent and current thinking among the intellectual "Left" is once again finding endorsement by a new generation of empirical and experimental evolutionary psychologists, Teehan, Domasio, Nowick etc. The lesson for social justice is cooperation not competition, something an older generation grasped intuitively.schmoepoohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336073174221033319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39734292295544712152013-11-18T13:51:40.511+13:002013-11-18T13:51:40.511+13:00For what it's worth Chris, kudos for this thre...For what it's worth Chris, kudos for this thread. Brave, reasoned, very human.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-23892818787365973342013-11-18T13:45:12.714+13:002013-11-18T13:45:12.714+13:00I suggest you pay less attention to newspapers tab...I suggest you pay less attention to newspapers tabloid in character if not in format who are the printed equivalent of Fox News. schmoepoohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336073174221033319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66771279604522322082013-11-18T10:51:42.470+13:002013-11-18T10:51:42.470+13:00Yeah, Tiger Mountain, I think you've just abou...Yeah, Tiger Mountain, I think you've just about summed up this thread.<br /><br />Time to say "arrivederci" to Giovanni and Enzo.<br /><br />Time, tides and politics wait for no one. <br /><br />As Helen would say: "Time to move on."Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-12189784821870360242013-11-18T10:01:26.453+13:002013-11-18T10:01:26.453+13:00Mano a mano blog exchanges often prove counterprod...Mano a mano blog exchanges often prove counterproductive after three or more serves as ever finer scalpels are produced in an attempt to slice and dice the opponent. <br /><br />Neither Giovanni or Chris is going to triumph here or enhance their reputations except Giovanni with the Public Address luvvies and Chris maybe with some recalcitrant people who see his free speech argument as a convenience for not fully facing the rape culture problem.<br /><br />Willie and John did it to themselves in the first instance. Blogger and consumer intervention helped them along to time out. What happens now is the important thing. Anyone can call for consumer action or boycotts on and off line but they have to be very well organised for legal reasons and not overused like online petitions have become imo.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Tiger Mountainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-71337038445058008512013-11-18T09:32:47.626+13:002013-11-18T09:32:47.626+13:00I can help with that - the reason is most of them ...I can help with that - the reason is most of them are more concerned about their low wages and manufacturing jobs disappearing overseas to wast too much time worrying overly much about what other people get up to in their bedrooms.<br /><br />Enzo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57182539744576100512013-11-18T09:18:33.958+13:002013-11-18T09:18:33.958+13:00"In my experience as a union official, rank-a..."In my experience as a union official, rank-and-filers are frequently wary of speaking too freely in front of the union's hired staff..."<br /><br />Whereas they're only too happy to speak freely in front of man's man and syndicated columnist Chris Trotter! Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-79940110827965362752013-11-18T09:12:00.220+13:002013-11-18T09:12:00.220+13:00To: Enzo Giordani.
I suspected, Enzo, and Google ...To: Enzo Giordani.<br /><br />I suspected, Enzo, and Google has just confirmed, that you are a union official (for those horny-handed sons and daughters of toil in the Tertiary Education Union, I see).<br /><br />In my experience as a union official, rank-and-filers are frequently wary of speaking too freely in front of the union's hired staff - especially if they've been regularly lectured to on the evils of a plethora of "isms" by kids just out of university.<br /><br />That may not be you, or the EPMU, but it's difficult to fathom how you could have met so few Waitakere Men in the Engineers Union otherwise!Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90361842765353593012013-11-18T09:11:01.688+13:002013-11-18T09:11:01.688+13:00I was really hoping you would suggest that it didn...I was really hoping you would suggest that it didn't happen because you warned against it. However, I wasn't expecting that you'd go with "it's true, you could read it in Twyford and Ardern's eyes!"<br /><br />Anyway, I think we're done here. I'll write a response about the free speech thing, if only because people not bothering to read Voltaire actually fucks me off.Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-69861832075133548132013-11-18T09:00:37.279+13:002013-11-18T09:00:37.279+13:00You really should pay more attention to what peopl...You really should pay more attention to what people actually say, Giovanni.<br /><br />Of course my fears proved to be unjustified, but having them aroused by peculiar comments and strange misconceptions more than warranted putting people on alert.<br /><br />Or, do you not respond to potential dangers until they have inflicted the damage you might have been able to prevent.<br /><br />I've had personal experience of ballots being rigged in the Labour Party. I thought it important that the possibility be addressed. I was happy to be proved wrong.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4700423901875667682013-11-18T08:37:54.083+13:002013-11-18T08:37:54.083+13:00"Either they were unable to count, or they di..."Either they were unable to count, or they didn't think they needed to."<br /><br />Your insisting your information was right against conclusive evidence to the contrary isn't going to make anyone think you're to be trusted about the other things, you know. Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-65427478591315482682013-11-18T08:07:43.090+13:002013-11-18T08:07:43.090+13:00I should also add that while we are having a pissi...I should also add that while we are having a pissing contest regarding which 'real people' we need to "get out more" and talk to, Chris, you should forget party conferences and union meetings and try canvassing for the Labour Party by door-knocking the residents of the parliamentary seat of Waitakere. They are not shy to tell you what they really think I can assure you and as far as gripes about what's wrong with Labour go, lack of tax cuts while we were in government tend to dwarf all other issues in my experience I'm sad to report.<br /><br />Enzo GiordaniAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-32348099819314725082013-11-18T08:00:05.768+13:002013-11-18T08:00:05.768+13:00Oh, ha, ha, Giovanni.
But here's something fo...Oh, ha, ha, Giovanni.<br /><br />But here's something for you to consider.<br /><br />The individual featured in that particular story was (wrongly) convinced that Caucus would have the last word in deciding who became Labour's leader.<br /><br />But he was by no means alone. Right up until the results were announced the followers of Grant Robertson were utterly convinced that their man would win. Their disappointment when he lost was palpable (as the wonderful shot of Jacinda Ardern and Phil Twyford testified).<br /><br />Now, everyone else who had been paying close attention to the leadership contest knew (almost from the first day) that David Cunliffe would carry both the ordinary and affiliated members. That left the 34 caucus votes as the most likely place for any chicanery (assuming chicanery was ever planned) to occur.<br /><br />The unguarded comments of my informant, and the adamantine certainty of Robertson's followers, were enough for me to alert The Daily Blog's readers to the niceties of vote-rigging.<br /><br />I am by no means the only person who followed the leadership contest to have noticed the curious certainty of the Robertson camp. Many people at the recent conference commented to me that they found it amazing that professional politicians (like Ardern and Twyford) were unable to predict the outcome of an intra-party contest.<br /><br />Either they were unable to count, or they didn't think they needed to.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41101936114744681662013-11-18T02:46:50.612+13:002013-11-18T02:46:50.612+13:00If I were to advise our national sportsmen, say Al...If I were to advise our national sportsmen, say All Blacks to avoid known trouble spots in King's Cross beyond certain hours in the morning would I be thereby defending thuggery or blaming the victim?schmoepoohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336073174221033319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-68195951737842798492013-11-18T00:56:37.327+13:002013-11-18T00:56:37.327+13:00I've attended 12 of the last 13 Labour Party c...I've attended 12 of the last 13 Labour Party conferences, worked for the EPMU for five years, and have even sunk a couple of ales at the odd RSA on rare occasion, and I can honestly count on one hand the number of people who have expressed to me a problem with Labour's record on gender or sexuality issues. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-29134417813217762872013-11-18T00:27:22.787+13:002013-11-18T00:27:22.787+13:00I certainly prefer Chris Trotter to Giovanni Tiso,...I certainly prefer Chris Trotter to Giovanni Tiso, when it comes to "fairness" and to publish dissenting views. I wonder whether Giovanni is really in tune with reality on this, as Chris has been impressively liberal with allowing dissenting comments on his blog. <br /><br />Indeed I am disappointed by Giovanni, and while some have a high view of him, I will need to be convinced that he deserves it.<br /><br />Now, was it actually "Chris" who invented "Waitakere Man", or is there perhaps another misunderstanding?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76933868570386800702013-11-17T22:46:25.564+13:002013-11-17T22:46:25.564+13:00I strongly suspect that the people you mix with re...I strongly suspect that the people you mix with reflect your views, Chris, as is the case with most people. And if the level of informants matches the guy who told you that they were going to rig the Labour leadership election for sure, you know... Maybe sinking fewer ales would be okay too.Giovanni Tisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10618534731338616708noreply@blogger.com