tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post6212835474423755373..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Has Labour Become A Co-Governed Party?Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9727397232646232012022-12-05T15:36:13.632+13:002022-12-05T15:36:13.632+13:00I should have – obviously not awake – been referri...I should have – obviously not awake – been referring to reserve bank officials who have decided to bring about a recession. Not the Treasury – my bad. That being said, neither organisation that has a particularly stellar record in doing what they are supposed to do. So I'm not surprised that their advice is ignored from time to time.<br /><br />https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/thomas-coughlan-treasurys-been-getting-it-wrong-on-house-prices-it-should-be-forced-to-explain-why/B5YC73XRHUWS2G3B3D2WBKUHAM/<br />https://www.nzinitiative.org.nz/reports-and-media/opinion/the-rot-at-treasury-started-years-ago/<br />https://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/nz-treasury-errors-led-to-budget-leak-inquiry-finds/<br />https://www.odt.co.nz/business/treasury-forecasters-get-it-wrong-again<br /><br />Plenty more of these if you care to look.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22212956568449893902022-12-04T11:32:02.461+13:002022-12-04T11:32:02.461+13:00Guerilla Surgeon refers to "unelected Treasur...Guerilla Surgeon refers to "unelected Treasury officials".<br /><br />You are drawing a very long bow if you truly think this government has assiduously followed sound Treasury advice. From what has been published there are numerous times when Treasury advice has been either ignored or cherry picked in order to follow ideology.<br /><br />https://www.politik.co.nz/the-government-ignores-treasurys-advice-and-goes-its-own-way-on-property-prices/<br /><br />https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/lack-of-evidence-govt-ignored-initial-treasury-warnings-over-ute-tax/<br /><br />https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/revealed-government-ignored-treasury-advice-on-9-9m-westland-milk-provincial-growth-fund-loan.html<br /><br />Plenty more of you have the time.<br /><br />Gary Petersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-53252848210695766702022-12-04T11:24:29.632+13:002022-12-04T11:24:29.632+13:00Dave, if that is labour's plan they will soon ...Dave, if that is labour's plan they will soon find that "feeding" that particular beast has an exponential growth factor built in.<br /><br />Like a drug addict, it will require more and more until either supplies run out or they self destruct.Gary Petersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-52984369097709251792022-12-04T08:56:28.342+13:002022-12-04T08:56:28.342+13:00Some excellent work unraveling the three waters fi...Some excellent work unraveling the three waters financing and it's implications here:<br /><br />https://cranmer.substack.com/p/three-waters-and-the-debt-that-will<br /><br />Also of likely interest on the broader issues:<br /><br />https://cranmer.substack.com/p/three-waters-and-he-puapua<br /><br />https://cranmer.substack.com/p/the-unbridled-power-of-te-mana-o<br /><br />https://cranmer.substack.com/p/the-three-waters-select-committeeDavid Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26654716733518857872022-12-04T08:46:25.903+13:002022-12-04T08:46:25.903+13:00Perhaps you've simply not been paying attentio...Perhaps you've simply not been paying attention Andrew Nichols, the issues with the three waters have been extensively covered here and elsewhere. It's clandestine, undemocratic introduction, the outright lies (34,000 Kiwis a year sick from drinking municipal water?) used as justification, the racist basis for it's governance, the lack of local, or any, democratic oversight of it's management and so on. Ignorance over it's financing is probably more excusable. It has been poorly covered.<br /><br />The intention is to fund it with an incredible $297,000,000,000 loan (equivalent to almost our nation's entire GDP, or turnover, for 2020) on the open debt market at a debt to profit ratio of 9 or 10 times EBITD. So that implies an annual nett (ex. interest etc.) profit of almost $30 billion dollars - more than half of that, depending on prevailing rates, will disappear in interest payments alone!. And that's not even including running costs or any debt repayment or depreciation of assets. Some perspective - the total spend by all local councils for all general public services in 2020 was $4.3 billion.<br /><br />So where's all this money going to come from? There's only one place it can come from - Kiwi households and businesses. You OK with that?<br /><br />What past Maori may or may not have "felt" has nothing to do with it, we are responsible for thinking about and discussing and working out what is best for us all now and in the future as best we can. This plan is deeply flawed in every possible way.<br /><br /><br />David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-48396868504693355472022-12-02T17:31:03.394+13:002022-12-02T17:31:03.394+13:00I would not assume Labour's behavior to be irr...I would not assume Labour's behavior to be irrational.<br /><br />What if Labour consciously or otherwise believes that the Maori vote will be sealed for them in perpetuity, bringing them back into power for many terms after National attempts to repeal their newly acquired rights and privileges?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10030948662619040396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54784398163374486652022-12-02T09:34:51.531+13:002022-12-02T09:34:51.531+13:00Come to think of it, come to think of it, is it wo...Come to think of it, come to think of it, is it worse when unelected judges dictate policy – which it could be argued as the job – or when unelected Treasury officials deliberately set out to cause a recession, which none of them will suffer from.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77848703560852143602022-12-02T08:52:06.886+13:002022-12-02T08:52:06.886+13:00Sorry, I forgot to include the link to the above s...Sorry, I forgot to include the link to the above story:<br />https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130623964/jacinda-ardern-attended-labour-caucus-meeting-where-controversial-three-waters-entrenchment-clause-was-discussedDavid Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-62568914550198869662022-12-02T08:50:43.260+13:002022-12-02T08:50:43.260+13:00Jacinda and Hipkins' BS busted.
Their claim t...Jacinda and Hipkins' BS busted.<br /><br />Their claim that the entrenchment clause Labour voted for was “not necessarily something I would be aware of” has been destroyed by none other than PM (puppet meister) Mahuta.<br /><br />"Local Government Minister Nanaia Mahuta confirmed, through a spokesperson, the change to the bill was discussed with the Labour caucus – a meeting of all its MPs – in advance of the House sitting." <br />And "Green Party local government spokesperson Eugenie Sage said her party had made it clear it wanted a 60% majority in an earlier select committee report, and had discussed it with Mahuta."<br />“There was also correspondence with the minister, but ... I’m not going to go into any more detail on what our discussions with the minister’s office were,” Sage said.<br /><br />“We had made our position clear to the Government before the SOP was tabled, that we were seeking this. Quite clear ... it should not have been a surprise.”David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-69972434220379728792022-12-02T07:01:28.584+13:002022-12-02T07:01:28.584+13:00All this fear....As a pakeha I see all the hooha o...All this fear....As a pakeha I see all the hooha over co governance as what Maori might reasonably have felt over the 19th Century watching their governance disintegrate to be replaced by settler governance. What is it that exactly scares you about Maori values in the water space? Water fit fir consumption? Clean enougb for fish to survive in? We dont get sick swimming in it? Its a human right?Andrew Nicholsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38761670738001841762022-12-02T00:05:50.533+13:002022-12-02T00:05:50.533+13:00Well Gazza, I looked at the BFD to understand your...Well Gazza, I looked at the BFD to understand your post. It seems an outlet for anonymous marginal right-wing views.<br /><br />I would hope that people would relate their own experience and context rather than unverifiable heresy. The 'mandatory staff education ' described is at best fantasy at worst the interpretation of an embittered person. The Barronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25039009776561067452022-12-01T16:41:21.827+13:002022-12-01T16:41:21.827+13:00A pyrrhic victory awaits and this suits the wild-e...A pyrrhic victory awaits and this suits the wild-eyed socialist extremists. <br /><br />This apology for a government will end up ... "in flames" with a landslide electoral defeat. There is no equivalent response that can be reasonably advanced, they are not for turning. <br /><br />"Let's all die on own selected hills as we are so certain of our moral superiority, we will brook no contrary opinions and we will never admit to error."<br /><br />This sums up the vaulting arrogance of Ardern's government. <br /><br />Their self-righteous polemic leaves no opening for democratic debate.<br /><br />So save your breath. LARRY MITCHELLhttp://www.cprlifesaver.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77778346370521426352022-12-01T16:30:29.011+13:002022-12-01T16:30:29.011+13:00Co-governance is not compatible with equal suffrag...<i>Co-governance is not compatible with equal suffrage or democracy more widely. It violates New Zealand's binding obligations under international human rights law which we have ratified long ago. Labour has received no mandate to introduce it. They have become a rogue government. The Governor-General should remove them.</i><br /><br />FFS. <br /><br />International agreements are only binding insofar as they have been incorporated into domestic law, and, well, Parliament is Supreme (I also think you'll find a major issue here was the Key Government signing onto a certain International Declaration).<br /><br />Governments do all sorts of things they never promised all the time (see 1984 and 1990), and the correct way of dealing with it is via election. Not by calling for the Governor-General to launch a coup d'etat.DShttps://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13766806784854190562022-12-01T12:30:40.436+13:002022-12-01T12:30:40.436+13:00John Hurley at 11.41
Your comments always seem to ...John Hurley at 11.41<br />Your comments always seem to have a negative feel . Puty. If we could have carried on trying to be multi racial for a good reason of harmony and co-operation and respect which I think was what we needed, then we'd be 70% happy now instead of the other way. But Labour fell for the wealth aspect of the country, and bringing in loads of poor people with ambitions from countries with tough attitudes to others prepared to squeeze advantage to the nth degree, which their rich often do to their own people using their poverty against them. And to top it off the wealthy of all races have been encouraged to come here and pick our plums with their minds and purses, truly multi-racial Labour and National have together wrecked our potential ability to be the well-functioning multi-racial society envisaged. We were on our way till the greedy and lazy middle class looked to neoliberalism and free markets and investment finance from the internationally advantaged as an easy way to advance their NZ and wipe the floor with the most of us.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10409348049005668802022-12-01T12:11:46.955+13:002022-12-01T12:11:46.955+13:00The nuclear issue brought NZ to the world politica...The nuclear issue brought NZ to the world political stage as the brave little country that could. While we were absorbing all the 'fallout' from that we had a different domestic fallout, killing off our country's heart-policies that we had been brought up to believe were entrenched in our culture. We have been crippled since and can only manage to stand up and wave our crutches angrily or sadly. To march chanting 'What do we want,,,We want it now' we know is a farce, and going to the central government site in Wellington, it's just a roundhouse and not our real, meaningful Beehive that we knew.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25001483157885894172022-12-01T11:46:56.631+13:002022-12-01T11:46:56.631+13:00"Trump and Brexit can be statistically linked..."Trump and Brexit can be statistically linked to the salience of immigration at the national level (identity threat).<br />Who seriously believes you can just replace one group with another or declare "they are us" (problem solved)."<br /><br />Interesting, considering that the strongest brexit votes came from places that never saw a migrant from one year to the next, except some temporary apple pickers perhaps. As it is, it's turned out to be an outright economic disaster, and all the hypocrites who pushed it have managed to insulate themselves from the results by getting Irish citizenship or shifting their businesses elsewhere. Whereas small business people who can't do that are suffering. Using brexit to stop migration has turned out to be similar to destroying your house to get rid of termites.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77172264273716242882022-12-01T10:04:59.457+13:002022-12-01T10:04:59.457+13:00Is the willingness of the government (and associat...Is the willingness of the government (and associated agencies) to embrace and enforce the deeply flawed co governance ideology courage or cowardice? Perhaps it's both at the same time - just like a gang member, terrified of standing up to his allies but ruthlessly brave and intractably "staunch" against those outside.<br /><br />"the modern state has been captured by insider patronage networks that are mob-like in their behaviour and effect. The resulting erosion of trust among the public has seen the government devolve into what might be called ‘amoral institutionalism’. And we can feel the tremors of that each time we go to the shops or read stories about Covid-19.<br /><br />The ruling progressive mob doesn’t use familial connections as its baseline for admission, but rather institutional affiliations, long periods of ideological training and other loyalty-assurance mechanisms to keep the patronage networks aligned. At the centre is a true power elite presiding over these networks and forming the ideological centre of gravity holding the mob system together".<br /><br />"most of the people involved in the progressive mob network dominating Western society likely don’t believe that this is what they are. But it also isn’t necessary for them to see that they are part of a mob, as long as they behave as though it is."<br /> https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/12/01/the-new-king-of-twitter/David Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04883628159193125307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-91508655917354671162022-12-01T08:49:06.375+13:002022-12-01T08:49:06.375+13:00Perhaps the baron needs to broaden his conversatio...Perhaps the baron needs to broaden his conversation circle.<br /><br />This is from the BFD today, unedited.<br /><br />"Had the first of three mandatory staff educations days this week. The message was as expected. Colonisation is to blame for every Maori health issue and "it cannot continue". (I thought the new Health Service Te Whatu Ora is supposed to fix that). People who bash their children even to the point of death are not to blame - it is colonisation (yeah right). Not enough land has been given back yet (but no mention of the fact they are about to own all the water). They had their culture ripped away from them (sure thing /sarc). Pakeha must learn about their culture so they can understand what they have done and their obligations under the treaty (I didn't sign it and don't have any)."Gary Petersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54227629959990117072022-12-01T05:42:01.315+13:002022-12-01T05:42:01.315+13:00In this video economist and champion of the open s...In this video economist and champion of the open society George Megalogenis argues that Australia's economy boomed while it remained open (gold rushes) and stagnated while closed.<br />He isn't sure about Australia's carrying capacity, but he warns that taking that route is a dangerous way to go as it will require (I forget the word) a restructuring[?] of society.<br />In other words a [country/state?] has to (finally) confront "who is us".<br />On Q&A wealthy Grimes and Spoonley (Oscar Knightly) say "whatever happens we will get through; we will find a way".<br />This from the people who are met at the airport by Corporate Cabs; whereas Big G still working at 72 and worries about his blood pressure as his license is coming due for renewal while he has debt to pay.<br />Ha-Joon Chang points out that an Indian bus driver earns a tiny fraction (1:50) of what a Swedish bus driver earns. Progressives don't accept population to resources as an argument (that only applies to animals). Eric Crampton sees Ha-Joon Changs argument as being <i> in favour</i> of migration.<br />So you have a meritocratic society where the weakest get crushed, and the bottom line is numbers of workers.<br />In that situation people naturally seek out belonging. Unfortunately, the peasants won't win; the vested interests will. The <i>Thais</i> will cower and hide their resentment of the <i>farlang</i>.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60q2yIfXtig&t=6sJohn Hurleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-14682506655114750832022-12-01T02:18:12.215+13:002022-12-01T02:18:12.215+13:00It was only 3 Yeats ago I finished delivering work...It was only 3 Yeats ago I finished delivering workshops, and I understand the material developed is still the basis for those delivered now.<br /><br />I think we need to be open for experience. The Eurocentric world view is already established, opening to an understanding of te ao Maori is often needed. The pepeha is about making connections and commonality. It demonstrates a sociocentric ontology in contrast to a western egocentric cultural basis.. It has value for some workshops in helping understand different social values and what we have in common.<br /><br />Descriptions such as indoctrination don't fit. Increased bicultural or multicultural understanding does not deter from the western cultural domination. Indeed, what the workshops are about is incorporating and including a wider cultural view as we develop what we see as modern New Zealand. <br />The Barronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-81761964420380671492022-11-30T22:13:21.714+13:002022-11-30T22:13:21.714+13:00Someone once said: 'It is not the lofty white ...Someone once said: 'It is not the lofty white sails that move the ship, but the unseen wind..'<br /><br />They could have added: 'and the dark currents beneath..' <br /><br />Politics unfortunately seems to attract, too often, people who see it as a personal career rather than a mission towards a better future for all, and the Labour Party, once a home for folk whose driving passions were the soaring sails that drove the ship, is no more. It is now crewed by moral cowards in the British Blairite tradition, shameless mediocrities inhabiting a once great, but now purposeless and decaying vessel.<br /><br />We really cannot change people who see no problem with advancing issues with blatant deceit and lies as co-governance interpretations of the Treaty of Waitangi involve. The consequence of that nonsense is now a shameful Government intent to graft a deeply unpopular,and flawed,'3 Waters' governance onto the whole country.<br /><br />Nor is that the end. it is only the beginning. The flow-through will be a deeply riven undemocratic society, be in no doubt. Root and branch this lot must go.<br /><br />AlanAlanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158473327999595285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-49984787812920388062022-11-30T20:37:35.284+13:002022-11-30T20:37:35.284+13:00The Baron. Thanks for your insights. I'm wonde...The Baron. Thanks for your insights. I'm wondering how long since you were involved with the workshops? Things started out like you explained but I can assure you from experience there is a feeling at workshops now of casting shame on colonialists/white people. Even the practice of getting all participants to do a pepeha to introduce themselves by explaining their mountain, their river, their iwi is ridiculous. It feels like one is a child again and having to pretend to love Jesus. Why do we have to pretend to be Maori just so we can do our jobs???<br />This Maori indoctrination has infiltrated all government and local government, all education institutes including most necessarily primary schools and pre-schools. I know a teacher who says that at her Primary school the only songs sung are Maori ones.<br />One minority people can never subsume another in harmony (e.g. South Africa) and it is mega-stupidity to try.<br />MCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39238687636035973162022-11-30T15:06:16.075+13:002022-11-30T15:06:16.075+13:00Co-governance is not compatible with equal suffrag...Co-governance is not compatible with equal suffrage or democracy more widely. It violates New<br />Zealand's binding obligations under international human rights law which we have ratified long ago. Labour has received no mandate to introduce it. They have become a rogue government. The Governor-General should remove them.Odysseushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04745489060434244478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15606365871090276342022-11-30T13:44:56.072+13:002022-11-30T13:44:56.072+13:00Part Two
It is difficult to align my experience o...Part Two<br /><br />It is difficult to align my experience of attending, developing and presenting Treaty workshops with Chris' -<br /><br />"Many of those attending Treaty workshops will have been invited to “check their privilege” and “confront their racism”. This can be a harrowing experience for many Pakeha, leaving them with a strong inclination to keep silent and step aside whenever those on the receiving end of “white privilege” are encouraged to step forward and speak out. In the most extreme cases, Pakeha are actively discouraged from sharing their opinions, lest their higher education and superior facility with the English language overawe and “silence” those denied such privileges."<br /><br />This seems straight out of the extreme right of the Republican Party fearmongering on Critical Race Theory. The Treaty Workshops simply do not operate this way. I have never seen any individual or sector singled out or blamed for the sin of the father. Indeed, right through until we finish with shared waiata the aim is always to bring the group together. This includes not simply Maori and Pakeha, but Pasifika and new migrant societies. <br /><br />If Labour MPs have undergone Treaty workshops, I would suggest that those would be models of inclusion. The indoctrination workshop described are a Stasi fantasy.The Barronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-5064927408524382892022-11-30T13:44:21.512+13:002022-11-30T13:44:21.512+13:00I note your comments regarding the “Treaty Worksho...I note your comments regarding the “Treaty Workshop”. a one who has developed and presented such workshops, I should urge against essentialism. These have varied over time and orientation. The late Moana Jackson was undoubtedly the Godfather of the workshop. His softly spoken and inclusive delivery was rich with personal living history intersecting with concepts of national and international law and colonial constructs. While Chris suggests consistent "colonisers = baddies; the heroic Māori who resisted the colonisers’ ruthless predations = goodies" this played no part in Jackson's workshops.<br /><br />It is conceded that the early 1990s was a time when Maori had grown in the knowledge of colonial history and Pakeha lagged in the same knowledge. Some of these early workshops reflected the shock value and the frustration of this discrepancy of understanding. These evolved towards the Jackson model, primarily because it was more effective.<br /><br />The workshops I was involved with were co-created by Maori and Pakeha. While it covered the history of colonial NZ to the Waitangi Tribunal I am unaware of any claims of historical bias, and delivery was at times in front of published historians. However, the workshopping primarily about forward looking and what is required in decision-making. We showed examples where Maori needs and ontology was overlooked. Examined the decision making process and how it would be enhanced by ensuring Maori input at that level. We showed that a colonial mono-cultural approach empowered only one group, but by expanding the input to include that of Maori we develop more multicultural and inclusive model. Also, how this flexibility would benefit Pakeha. <br /><br />An example of this is where bereavement leave is set alongside tangihanga. The Hura kōhatu is the unveiling ceremony that often occurs a year after the passing. By recognizing that duties to the bereaved are not all in the immediate time of the funeral it allows for the similar unveiling in Pasifika and others with shared cultural practice. As a result of the recognition of later duties to the bereaved we had benefited those that have to travel to Europe of America to sort wills and other things out. A simple thing that has been overlooked in a monocultural model that expands the the rights and needs of all. A very NZ solution that has been looked overseas at by Celtic and other cultures.<br /><br />Another example was in organizing a conference. An attempt at moving towards the Treaty it had been proposed that there would be two key note speakers, one Pakeha and one Maori. We workshopped this suggestion. The organization had a Maori wing. We discussed what would be the situation if two outstanding Maori speakers were available one year. What if the Maori wing had a Native American, indigenous Australian or other speaker they thought would add value. After a while there is a realization that, while well meaning, the earlier proposal was tokenistic and problematic. Most workshops landed on the idea that there would be two speakers, one nominated by the general body (which included Maori input) and one nominated by the Maori wing. The lesson being that to get it right, the treaty inspired process is one of structural decision making and empowerment.<br /><br />to be continued.The Barronnoreply@blogger.com