tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post647333272229905147..comments2024-03-29T03:41:12.499+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Capitalism’s Comforter: The Myth That The Free-Market Has Liberated Humanity.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31100828629007425522016-02-22T20:24:57.076+13:002016-02-22T20:24:57.076+13:00Great article. Relieving to know there is a consc...Great article. Relieving to know there is a consciousness about the capitalist ideology and the beast that it hides from us, and from itself. Hopefully the level of consciousness will rise, and Business Practice will implement the regulations needed to stay accountable to the environment, ecological safety and the well being of the human race on a physical and spiritual level.... Nice read thanksngawaka19https://www.blogger.com/profile/16768255570702707869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31410560171402125242016-02-18T18:26:46.063+13:002016-02-18T18:26:46.063+13:00If we have a resource capitalism will deplete it (...If we have a resource capitalism will deplete it (make us wealthy then crash) quicker than socialism.<br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15607028751724602829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-44570351610823633962016-02-18T17:06:04.066+13:002016-02-18T17:06:04.066+13:00@pat and anon 16.15
I think that statement is pret...@pat and anon 16.15<br />I think that statement is pretty right. And also there was the incentive after WW2 to show that capitalism was better than communism, so there! With the Soviet Union melted away, there is no reason to wear the mask and carry the pretty flower in the gun. The ugly face of capitalism can match and better, the ugly face of communism now - no more Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. <br /><br />And interesting read BushBaptist. How many 50 year olds shelf filling in the supermarkets? Lots it seems. Someone a little younger that I know works at the checkout, and I hear her leather soled shoes tapping smartly to work, about 20 minutes away, and sometimes I hear her walking back at around 11pm at night, 8 or 9 hours later. I call out hello without looking, knowing her footsteps and wish her a good day, though long and on her feet most of the time and unfailingly courteous, careful, warm in her manner. God I hope that the current protests about wages there don't rebound on her.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59174651296052448042016-02-18T15:42:43.567+13:002016-02-18T15:42:43.567+13:00@ anon 16.15
think you may have meant if the west...@ anon 16.15<br /><br />think you may have meant if the west didn't have millions of battle hardened (many disillusioned) returning servicemen post ww2 you doubt we would have developed our welfare states....pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18643167214507209132016-02-17T17:51:57.840+13:002016-02-17T17:51:57.840+13:00Russia has always needed a Strongman to control it...Russia has always needed a Strongman to control it. It is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious country. it is a huge country, on a modern airliner it takes 14.5 hours to fly from Vladivostok to Moscow and that is not all the way across it. It encompasses 10 time zones too and stretches across 2/3 of the nth Hemisphere.<br /><br />Anon 9.17 Russia was never "Communist" and NZ was a Democratic Socialist country from WW II to 1984. During that time we had the largest middle class in history. Some-one from the Working Class could move up the ladder to become a Middle Class and many did. Since 1984 the Middle Class have been forced down to the Working Class and the working Class have been pushed out of the workforce. How many 50 year old people are working on the minimum wage in you local supermarket? These are the middle class that has been pushed out.Bushbaptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09657695593141243969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-48392305951233656682016-02-17T16:15:17.325+13:002016-02-17T16:15:17.325+13:00If the Soviet Union and the existence of a sociali...If the Soviet Union and the existence of a socialist alternative had not been present in the post war period I doubt we would have had our welfare states in the West. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20635621018274319102016-02-17T13:46:25.016+13:002016-02-17T13:46:25.016+13:00"instead we have mixed capitalist economies &..."instead we have mixed capitalist economies "<br /><br />We wish! At least I wish ours was a little more mixed than it is.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64727082123236782042016-02-17T11:24:13.421+13:002016-02-17T11:24:13.421+13:00In these ways.
1. The Soviet Union was a dictators...In these ways.<br />1. The Soviet Union was a dictatorship, nowhere near the logical conclusion of Marxism. Which to some might appear to be a fantasy but others not.<br />2. The current kleptocracy is a result of a mixture of factors, perhaps including yours, but it becomes caricature because of gross oversimplification. It makes it obvious you haven't done a great deal of reading on it, and doesn't reflect well on the believability of the rest of your stuff.<br />I could also say that the current kleptocracy is partly a result of advice given by neoliberal whackjobs to the Russian President. But that might be coming close to caricature.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-539751422083679582016-02-17T09:17:22.066+13:002016-02-17T09:17:22.066+13:00More nonsense Trotter, of course capitalism is res...More nonsense Trotter, of course capitalism is responsible for the enrichment of the proletariat it created, the only deviations from it in the last 150 years are the failed socialist experiments of the soviet union, china and indochina which were catastrophic as well as inhumane in they're totalitarian cruelty.<br /><br />You are making the usual mistake (or perhaps its intentional) of defining capitalism as a wild west unregulated variety - which of course no longer exists, instead we have mixed capitalist economies - with property ownership and regulated markets, but softened with progressive taxation and government transfers and programs to ameliorate the worst excesses of the system and gaurantee some kind of equality of opportunity.<br /><br />The alternaltives to capitalism - soviet communism or chavez democratic socialism have been discredited (sure paleo trots can never be convinced but they are an irrelevant minority) leaving the debate over minor details like the levels of taxation vs government spending - small change, good result, bravo Hayek, Smith and Friedman, you might try reading them one day Trotter - you could learn a thing or two from them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77941168316903244902016-02-17T08:37:19.229+13:002016-02-17T08:37:19.229+13:00Guerilla Surgeon,
How are
"The Soviet Union ...Guerilla Surgeon,<br />How are<br /><br />"The Soviet Union was the logical conclusion of the Marxist fantasy, applied with Russian paranoia and zeal."<br /><br />And<br /><br />"The current kleptocracy is the result of a power vacuum, and no history of or respect for representative democracy or judicial independence." <br /><br />Caricatures?<br /><br />They seem accurate descriptions to me.<br /><br />The crack about the left wanting everyone to be poor is a bit of a caricature, I'll admit!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-3988188677812635312016-02-16T22:56:02.311+13:002016-02-16T22:56:02.311+13:00What then, Chris, do you propose as an alternative...What then, Chris, do you propose as an alternative to the institutions of capitalism - free exchange and competition, a market economy, monetary exchange, private property rights, the rule of law? Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-65635714264779565802016-02-16T21:36:41.936+13:002016-02-16T21:36:41.936+13:00Capitalism and communism are children of the Enlig...Capitalism and communism are children of the Enlightenment which released science upon fossil fuels. The result was the industrial revolution that gave birth to the modern consumerist world. Neither capitalism nor communism could exist without this marriage of science technology and energy. Neither can claim credit for "progress". Neither are likely to survive the demise of cheap fossil fuels. Both might then stand amongst histories failed systems. Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46179987471059774292016-02-16T20:34:08.784+13:002016-02-16T20:34:08.784+13:00Hi Chris
It depressed me at the time that wh...Hi Chris <br /> It depressed me at the time that when Gorbachev extraordinarily dismantled the power structure beneath him to allow a more democratic regime to develop , acknowledged the failure of an economy completely decreed by authority , rather than progressing by steps to allow more freedom and entrepreneurship to develop Russia had to go to the most extreme proponents of neoliberal capitalism , at neoliberalism's zenith, for guidance. It was a tragic move from the sublime to the ridiculous .<br /> People seem to expect a change in economic policy to have an instantaneous effect, but it doesn't, it takes decades when your looking at a global stage. So the success of capitalism that neoliberals like Wayne Mapp claim for the polices since the 80s are actually the result of the pragmatic Keynsian management during the generation previous. The effects of the neoliberal era are what we are seeing now and will experience during the next few decades. <br /> I don't think any system should be thought of as socialism, that society as a whole would not wish for or choose to live under. That would exclude Soviet Russia as it was a brutal military dictatorship,not a social democracy. But I would doubt that a population that has lived with the freedom of individual choice , and the chance of betterment through extra effort , imagination and courage that a sensibly managed capitalist democracy can provide would ever choose any other system we've heard about yet.<br /> <br />Cheers D J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10877673584175754262016-02-16T20:25:24.071+13:002016-02-16T20:25:24.071+13:00"To suggest that's capitalism's fault..."To suggest that's capitalism's fault is hilarious."<br /><br />To suggest that it's a simple case of lawlessness and lack of proper democracy is ridiculous.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25620089951910668272016-02-16T19:56:33.285+13:002016-02-16T19:56:33.285+13:00I don't find your arguments credible. It wou...I don't find your arguments credible. It would be true that yours and Chris's view of history shows distinct differences.<br /><br />If you disagree about the value of mass political movements to the extent of saying they 'have done more harm than good - by a long way' then I want some example. What do you refer to when heartily disagreeing. Your opinion doesn't carry any weight without that.<br /><br />As for Russia's bad position, any large change in political systems enables ruffians and rorters to find juicy pickings. That's what happened here when the RW monetised the country and started carving off the state assets for sale. Some of our richest men managed to get them for a song and proceeded to use them as catalysts to a large fortune. <br /><br />Democracry doesn't stop that, it only succeeds when there is stability in a country, and a commitment by government and the politicians and business leaders to answer to the people. Democracy must always be undergoing repairs, as it is not as robust as people think. greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9874953341410819762016-02-16T17:18:18.463+13:002016-02-16T17:18:18.463+13:00Thing is Chris, you assume that you have a good gr...Thing is Chris, you assume that you have a good grasp of history, but from where I stand, your view of history is horribly warped by the prism that you insist on looking at the world through.<br /><br />eg, You say "Almost always this has been achieved by mass political movements harnessing the power of the state to institute mass public education, health and welfare programmes"<br /><br />I would say "mass political movements have done more harm than good - by a long long way"<br /><br />As for your characterisation of Russia as the end-result of capitalism? Haha. No, that's what happens when corruption and lawlessness is coupled with a lack of proper democracy - hardly the first time that's happened. To suggest that's capitalism's fault is hilarious.<br /><br />bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08068391165881872741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15990160376795405062016-02-16T16:29:52.197+13:002016-02-16T16:29:52.197+13:00"The Soviet Union was the logical conclusion ..."The Soviet Union was the logical conclusion of the Marxist fantasy, applied with Russian paranoia and zeal." – Caricature<br /><br />"The current kleptocracy is the result of a power vacuum, and no history of or respect for representative democracy or judicial independence." – Caricature<br /><br />"See also India. How many Chinese and Indian famines have their been recently? – Caricature, India in particular has not had a famine for a long time but was hardly capitalist.<br /><br />"This is why capitalism succeeds. It can and does lift people out of poverty."<br />I think Chris's point is that correlation is not necessarily causation.<br /><br />"I sometimes think the left would be most pleased with everyone equal and poor." – Caricature, certainly not true of any left-wing people I know.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-49120561317762885482016-02-16T13:43:19.000+13:002016-02-16T13:43:19.000+13:00Get out of the wrong side of bed this morning? :)
...Get out of the wrong side of bed this morning? :)<br /><br />This post contains elements of truth, but is mostly a caricature.<br />Popular history (Reagan faced down the commies!) is always a caricature, whatever its politics.<br /><br />Using Russia as an example in anything political or economic over the last 300 years is a bad idea. They have always made a huge mess of things, while looking Westward with envy and paranoia.<br />The left would do well to remember that.<br />The Soviet Union was the logical conclusion of the Marxist fantasy, applied with Russian paranoia and zeal.<br />The current kleptocracy is the result of a power vacuum, and no history of or respect for representative democracy or judicial independence.<br /><br />The Chinese have similar moral issues, but more pragmatism and less of an inferiority complex. Their economic boom has moved (at minimum) 10s of millions out of poverty.<br />See also India. How many Chinese and Indian famines have their been recently?<br />The left studiously ignores this.<br />Their lives of most of these may be poor compared to ours, but they are an improve ment on what came before.<br />I do not defend the opressive Chinese one party state. I do observe their recentish economic success, since they abandoned communism in all but name. <br />And I note you fondness for quoting Chinese communists.<br /><br />This is why capitalism succeeds. It can and does lift people out of poverty.<br />It is fantastic at generating wealth, esp with free trade.<br /> Less good at distributing wealth, but at least it gives wealth to distribute. Most western countries have welfare states and taxation to do this. <br />The NZ welfare, health, education budget is as big as it has ever been. <br /><br />Sure, the welfare state may need improving. And sure, corporations are always going to act in their own interests. These aren't revelations. Organisations nearly always act in their own interest, be they corporation or state apparatus. <br />And there is always a need for strong and fair regulation, esp wrt things like banks.<br /><br /><br />I sometimes think the left would be most pleased with everyone equal and poor.<br /><br />I know you've been asked this before, but what IS your idea of how a fair modern society should be organised? <br />More state control of industry?<br />Compulsory unionism?<br />Free tertiary education? I'd probably agree on this, if you stop people doing bullshit degrees for social reasons.<br />Less immigration?<br />More state houses?<br />More tax?<br />Land reform? I'd agree to this, the RMA is a is disaster<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com