tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post6645551462786378321..comments2024-03-19T22:29:13.835+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Disproportionate ResponseChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-55363892548642812672009-01-16T12:53:00.000+13:002009-01-16T12:53:00.000+13:00Before it is thrown around again I must point out:...Before it is thrown around again I must point out: Hamas was never truly elected by the Palestinian people. While Hamas may have won close to 60% of the seats in the most recent Palestinian election (doing so largely by a campaign focused on Fatah corruption and local service delivery), they did by winning just 44% of the vote, only 3% more than Fatah. In a proportional electoral system the outcome of the election would almost certainly have been a coalition Fatah-Minor Groupings+Independents coalition. Much as Israel's hyper-proportional electoral system makes it so difficult for Israel to make hard decisions on this Palestinian question, Palestinians un-proportional system spawned a political crisis that has cost so many people their lives.<BR/><BR/>For that matter, Hitler was never elected either. The Nazi party never won more than 37% of the vote in a free election. Hitler became Chancellor only because he was installed as such by members of the German "deep state" most of whom were authoritarian minded former aristocrats who had never committed themselves to democracy. He then quickly silenced a legislature he knew would oppose him.Luke Hassallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11820892901310183412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-52416934941439905542009-01-15T23:22:00.000+13:002009-01-15T23:22:00.000+13:00Carol, I believe you are wrong when you say that I...Carol, I believe you are wrong when you say that Israel stole Palestinian land - that is balderdash. The United Nations formed a plan in 1947 to separate the land pretty much 50/50 as you can see in <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png" REL="nofollow">THIS MAP</A>, with Jerusalem being under UN administration (since it's ownership was a point of contention). The Jews agreed to this plan, the Arabs did not and attacked Israel together with the armies of 8 other countries. <BR/><BR/>Israel won, after a year long battle, and claimed some land as spoils of war (as often happens after any war).<BR/><BR/>So, if the Arabs had taken up the UN plan, they would have had half the land by now. It is their own fault.<BR/><BR/>Yes, there are figures that say that 590,000 Palestinians were turned into refugees by the creation of Israel in 1948, but there are also figures that say 850,000 Arab Jews were forced to leave their homes in 10 Arab states, were taken in by Israel, but never compensated for the land and homes they lost.I.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-49716832603520012022009-01-15T16:28:00.000+13:002009-01-15T16:28:00.000+13:00Green Tea this is going to be an endless argument,...Green Tea this is going to be an endless argument, much as the situation in the Middle East is...<BR/><BR/>I cannot accept that Hamas has been "most restrained". The 1967 borders leave Israel open to attack again. <BR/><BR/>Do not forget that in May 1967 Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border. They closed the Straits of Tiran (a blockade by any other name) to all Israeli traffic, ejected the UN forces in Sinai that were there from the Suez crisis, and got overt support from Jordan and Syria. <BR/><BR/>To protect themselves, Israel attacked Egypt, which brought Jordan and Syria in since they had pacts with Egypt. This attack was essentially condoned under UN guidelines as being in "self defence" to a real threat - the massed army.<BR/><BR/>Israel offered to withdraw to a modified 1967 line (modified to ensure its security) in at Camp David in 2000. The offer was quite substantial and detailed. Arafat rejected it when everyone else was on the verge of agreeing.<BR/><BR/>So no-one is innocent here. For the Arab nations to attack the 1967 border and then claim to be the victim after they got their asses kicked is a bit rich.rouppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07446734587426078093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-85839230586903287972009-01-15T10:59:00.000+13:002009-01-15T10:59:00.000+13:00rouppe, I agree, the IDF must withdraw, however th...rouppe, I agree, the IDF must withdraw, however they have been advancing further and further into whats left of Palestine. <BR/><BR/>If you read carefully you'll find that Hamas have been the most restrained, they even offered Israel a 10 year truce in exchange for Israel withdrawing back to pre 1967 borders, an agreement Israel promptly rejected.<BR/><BR/>IMO, the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is a democratic state in Israel representative of all its peoples. However this represents a huge threat to the Zionist regime and quite possibly could mean the eventual phase out of Israel as Jews return to living amongst other cultures as they have done for hundreds of years.Green Teahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455108847379022597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-56155991886008778772009-01-14T17:01:00.000+13:002009-01-14T17:01:00.000+13:00Green TeaI believe the IDF must stop and withdraw....Green Tea<BR/><BR/>I believe the IDF must stop and withdraw. But that will only work if Palestinians *overtly* state they will stop rocket attacks, suicide bombings etc. <BR/><BR/>Is one side worse than the other? Well, I don't think it matters any more because there will *never* be a peace if either side keeps hold of "who started it". The situation is past that now. <BR/><BR/>They both have to put that aside and want a solution where both Israel and a Palestine state perceive it as a win. If either try to dictate terms well then there will either be continuous conflict, or an unforgivable ethnic cleansing.rouppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07446734587426078093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-30584186057993256032009-01-14T11:24:00.000+13:002009-01-14T11:24:00.000+13:00Chris.If you listen to the interview with Sir Jere...Chris.<BR/><BR/>If you listen to the interview with Sir Jeremy Greenstock you will hear him state that the biggest school in Gaza is run by a Catholic Priest - with Hamas' approval.<BR/><BR/>Here's the latest on who started what.<BR/><BR/>Who will save Israel from itself?<BR/>By Mark LeVine<BR/><BR/>One by one the justifications given by Israel for its latest war in Gaza are unravelling.<BR/><BR/>The argument that this is a purely defensive war, launched only after Hamas broke a six-month ceasefire has been challenged, not just by observers in the know such as Jimmy Carter, the former US president who helped facilitate the truce, but by centre-right Israeli intelligence think tanks.<BR/><BR/>The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, whose December 31 report titled "Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report," confirmed that the June 19 truce was only "sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by ... "rogue terrorist organisations".<BR/><BR/>Instead, "the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement" occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day.<BR/><BR/>According to a joint Tel Aviv University-European University study, this fits a larger pattern in which Israeli violence has been responsible for ending 79 per cent of all lulls in violence since the outbreak of the second intifada, compared with only 8 per cent for Hamas and other Palestinian factions.<BR/><BR/>http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.htmlBrewerstroupehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13011600547966200031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46412879620363367432009-01-14T10:50:00.000+13:002009-01-14T10:50:00.000+13:00"History Matters" http://www.counterpunch.org/hago..."History Matters" <BR/><BR/>http://www.counterpunch.org/hagopian01092009.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-7144411264428998052009-01-14T10:00:00.000+13:002009-01-14T10:00:00.000+13:00Oh, and Sonic, I nearly forgot. I followed your li...Oh, and Sonic, I nearly forgot. I followed your link to the Hamas Charter, and guess what I found:<BR/><BR/>"Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)."<BR/><BR/>Now, where have I seen that before? Oh, yes, that's right - in my original posting!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for clearing that up.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-16915032286280688202009-01-14T09:52:00.000+13:002009-01-14T09:52:00.000+13:00Well, Sonic, I'll concede they might have a little...Well, Sonic, I'll concede they might have a little difficulty leaving at the moment. But you must concede that there are Palestinian families all over the world - including right here in NZ - who have opted to emmigrate rather than endure life on the West Bank or Gaza.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and if you want to be certain that your comments will be posted on this blog, I'd strongly suggest you first read Bowalley Road Rules.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-5708425213335970092009-01-14T02:52:00.000+13:002009-01-14T02:52:00.000+13:00Chris, you somehow failed to post my link with the...Chris, you somehow failed to post my link with the actual Hamas charter<BR/><BR/>http://middleeast.about.com/od/palestinepalestinians/a/me080106b.htm<BR/><BR/>As for this, <BR/><BR/>" I would seek a new life in a new country - as far away from the guns and bombs as I could get."<BR/><BR/>I know you are aware that the people of Gaza live behind a fence and are not allowed to leave.<BR/><BR/>Who are you trying to fool Chris?Sonichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00701209395700307908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-63157364269213282122009-01-13T21:25:00.000+13:002009-01-13T21:25:00.000+13:00Chris, I, like Steve, dont approve of Hamas and it...Chris, I, like Steve, dont approve of Hamas and its use of suicide bombing. Suicide bombing is ultimately designed to cause fear and terrorise innocents that they could be next, however I think you should also acknowledge that Israel uses these same tactics to great effect on the Palestinians.<BR/><BR/>To rouppe, I dont accept the argument that both sides are as bad as each other and therefore should both put down their arms and get on with peace. The problem I have with that is that Israel's idea of peace is wiping out nearly 1000 Palestinians in response to 27 Israeli's killed over 8 years. Israel must stop being the agressor if they're even going to get close to peace in the region.<BR/><BR/>Chris, I feel that your piece reflects a very narrow view. Could I humbly suggest you (and others) take a look at the reporting/writing of Jonathan Cook (http://www.jkcook.net/) or Alan Hart (http://zionism-realenemyofthejews.com/)<BR/><BR/>Also:<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUh067U7E1A<BR/>or<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZtrRGEflcGreen Teahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455108847379022597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70814795691486460202009-01-13T20:27:00.000+13:002009-01-13T20:27:00.000+13:00Chris you're attributing a view to the left that s...Chris you're attributing a view to the left that simply does not exist. The left has been almost unanimous in its condemnation of Israel's aggression. For example <A HREF="http://orthodoxanarchist.com/2009/01/126/thoughts-on-gaza/#more-126" REL="nofollow">this Orthodox Jew.</A> That condemnation does not extend to support of Hamas. When those on the left say they stand in solidarity with the people of Gaza they mean exactly that. Solidarity with the people and not the government of Gaza. The left has also been dispelling the myths and exposing the lies of Isreal. Doing so does not mean they support Hamas. What you're doing is constructing a straw man to once again differentiate yourself from others on the left. I've not heard anyone come out in support of Hamas it's merely outrage at the disgusting aggression purpetrated by Israel. The in comparison minute amount of indefensible violence carried out by Hamas is also condemned. The spin which you seem to have bought is cut through time and time again by those on the left. For instance the <A HREF="http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/12/myth-of-hamas-rejectionism.html" REL="nofollow">myth of Hamas's rejectionism</A> which you obviously believe. Hamas has time and again signalled its willingness to accede to a two state solution. It offered Israel a ten year ceasefire - Isreal didn't even talk to them. Clearly there is a disconnect between the rhetoric of their charter and their actions in power. Hamas observed the last ceasefire, Isreal broke it. It's already been pointed out to you, but you don't seem to get it. Despite Israel's outrageous blockade of Gaza Hamas didn't fire any rockets until Isreal broke the ceasefire on November the 4th. Many groups fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza. Groups with names like Martyrs brigade. Two rockets were fired into Isreal from Gaza in October by these groups. Well over a hundered were fired in November after Israel broke the ceasefire - the point being that Hamas had started firing rockets again. I shouldnt'need ot say this, but you seem not to understand the left's position on this situation - rocket attacks do not in anyway serve the interests of the Palestinian people. It should be clear to anyone though that the rocket attacks are just a false pretense for Israel's aggression. It should also be patently obvious that Isreal, as Hamas does, targets civilians intentionally - bombing ambulances, hospitls, schools, universities, ordering 100 people into a house and then shelling it. Making these points does not mean someone supports Hamas and it is preverse and cynical to make that implication. Hamas is depisable and not worthy of anyone's support on the left. Charges of anti-semitism are outrageous - it is the argument used by Isreali's to stultify discussion on the topic. Criticising Israel or zionism does not amount to anti-semitism. I have lost an immense amount of respect of you after that dispicable comment. <BR/><BR/>You may be interested to read this repsonse from other's on the left: <A HREF="http://anarchia.wordpress.com/2009/01/10/no-state-solution-in-gaza/" REL="nofollow">No state solution in Gaza.</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-42238400692412630062009-01-13T16:59:00.000+13:002009-01-13T16:59:00.000+13:00Link to interview with Blair and Sir Jeremy Greens...Link to interview with Blair and Sir Jeremy Greenstock:<BR/><BR/>http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7823000/7823746.stmBrewerstroupehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13011600547966200031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39734333443049087702009-01-13T14:20:00.000+13:002009-01-13T14:20:00.000+13:00I hate to importune but your post has me concerned...I hate to importune but your post has me concerned as the depth of your understanding of this affair. Perhaps I can inspire a little broader enquiry on your part by referencing Benny Morris, one of Israel's foremost historians, himself an avowed Zionist:<BR/><I>(My) book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.</I><BR/><BR/>http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htmBrewerstroupehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13011600547966200031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-14228089475984294202009-01-13T14:15:00.000+13:002009-01-13T14:15:00.000+13:00Chris,I have already condemned the actions of Hama...Chris,I have already condemned the actions of Hamas in an earlier post so to charecterise my frame of reference as "one side right-one side wrong" seems to be a cheap shot.<BR/><BR/>The last two paragraphs of your previous post are most revealing. <BR/><BR/>Sadly, your solution to this problem is for the Palestinians to simply uproot and leave i.e. ethnic cleansing. Now, to use your words, do you really believe that suggestion is going to "contribute toward the ultimate resolution of the conflict".Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10279864313076181990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64640805938386368632009-01-13T14:12:00.000+13:002009-01-13T14:12:00.000+13:00Chris, I expected better of you. Have you not hear...Chris, I expected better of you. Have you not heard of The King David Hotel, the Rome Embassy Bombing, the sinking of the Patria? Is it only the conduct of non-Jewish terror groups that arouses your concern.<BR/><BR/>Are you aware that Khalid Mishal, the author of the peace offer I posted survived an assassination attempt ordered by then Prime Minister Netanyahu in 1997?<BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal<BR/><BR/>Here is another small voice that dares question the received knowledge:<BR/><BR/>British Diplomat and former British Ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in an interview on the BBC Today Programme that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas linked imam some years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". Greenstock also stated that Hamas is not intent on the destruction of Israel and that nor is it politically tied to Iran.<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Hamas_documentsBrewerstroupehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13011600547966200031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26338121170266384402009-01-13T13:50:00.000+13:002009-01-13T13:50:00.000+13:00Also to Green Tea and SteveYour reactions are exac...Also to Green Tea and Steve<BR/><BR/>Your reactions are exactly the reactions that are keeping this conflict alive.<BR/><BR/>Palestinians say "...but the Israeli's have killed our children and stolen our land so we will kill them"<BR/><BR/>Israeli's say "...but Palestinians are firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel and terrorising our people that is why we have to blockade them and why we have had to strike"<BR/><BR/>As I said previously, both sides have to stop, put aside the historical grievances, give up something significant, agree to let the other alone, and move on.<BR/><BR/>Until that happens, and the reliance on retribution and revenge is stopped, there will continue to be killing.rouppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07446734587426078093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76771841585146135162009-01-13T13:02:00.000+13:002009-01-13T13:02:00.000+13:00To Green Tea and Steve:Your characterisation of th...To Green Tea and Steve:<BR/><BR/>Your characterisation of the Palestinians' fate simply cannot withstand historical scrutiny. The interaction of the Arab and Jewish populations of Palestine/Israel has been nowhere near as simple as you suggest. <BR/><BR/>The conduct of terrorist groups over the past 60 years (is it "moderate" to walk into a wedding reception with 20lbs of high explosive strapped to your body and detonate it?) has contributed mightily to the growth and power of the extremist elements on both sides.<BR/><BR/>Arab and Jewish moderates struggle for a hearing. <BR/><BR/>So, I fear your "one side right - one side wrong" frame of reference will contribute little of utility toward the ultimate resolution of the conflict.<BR/><BR/>And finally: what would I do if I found myself and my family living in the circumstances you describe? <BR/><BR/>Well, I would do what tens of thousands of Palestinians have already done: I would seek a new life in a new country - as far away from the guns and bombs as I could get.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-67471976301498939232009-01-13T11:19:00.000+13:002009-01-13T11:19:00.000+13:00Chris, you say you have never aquired a taste for ...Chris, you say you have never aquired a taste for extremism.<BR/><BR/>So is a government that steals land, builds illegal settlements and defies multiple UN resolutions a "mild" or a "moderate" government?<BR/><BR/>Equally could you describe sealing all the exits on a small overcrowded strip of land, turning off the power then bombing the 1.5 million inhabitants from the air, land and sea with the most sophisticated weaponry of modern warfare a "moderate" response to Hamas rockets?<BR/><BR/>Like Smowboy, I'm still waiting for just a hint of recognition from you that Israel may bear some responsibility for what's happening.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10279864313076181990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46677549161164359282009-01-13T10:29:00.000+13:002009-01-13T10:29:00.000+13:00Chris, while I enjoy almost all of your other post...Chris, while I enjoy almost all of your other posts this one is frankly absurd and sounds as if you've become an Israeli apologist.<BR/><BR/>What your article fails to acknowledge is that Hamas are simply a response to Israeli racism and oppression. If someone came into your house illegally and said "Im moving in, Im having the house and the section, and you can live in the shed out the back", you would be absolutely livid. The Palestinians are no different.<BR/><BR/>While Hamas might not be all inclusive and socialist, they're all the Palestinians have left to help them fight. Peaceful protest marches are not going to provide a solution, Israel has indicated it does not want peace.<BR/><BR/>What would be your response if you lived in a country where soldiers and police looked on as settlers kidnapped children or opened fire on civilians at will.Green Teahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07455108847379022597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-29175114212569511712009-01-13T00:17:00.000+13:002009-01-13T00:17:00.000+13:00"Having re-checked the contents of the quoted pass..."Having re-checked the contents of the quoted passage from multiple sources"<BR/><BR/>Are these "sources" a secret or would you like to share them with us?<BR/><BR/>Still no comment on the hundreds of dead and maimed Palestinian children I see, not even a rhetorical, "I weep for their suffering but"<BR/><BR/>A hard man you are underneath Christopher, that moderate cloak conceals a pretty callous individual.James Dolemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774046346905734191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77970789082731558042009-01-12T20:44:00.000+13:002009-01-12T20:44:00.000+13:00To Joe: Afghanistan, Iraq, the Ureweras - let's ta...To Joe: Afghanistan, Iraq, the Ureweras - let's take these in turn.<BR/><BR/>Afghanistan: Supported the destruction of the Taleban regime - still do.<BR/><BR/>Iraq: Opposed the US invasion. Marched against it. Wrote columns denouncing it.<BR/><BR/>Ureweras: Publicly rebuked those whose conduct and/or utterances suggest that they consider a recourse to armed struggle and political violence justifiable in the context of a functioning democracy like New Zealand. To date, I've been given to good reason to resile from this position.<BR/><BR/>The truth is Joe, that I'm confident the record of most moderate left-wing New Zealanders on these issues would look pretty similar to my own.<BR/><BR/>Extremism is something I've never (thankfully) acquired a taste for.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90556904813724559922009-01-12T20:02:00.000+13:002009-01-12T20:02:00.000+13:00Thank You Chris for such a great Post. When I cor...Thank You Chris for such a great Post. When I corresponded with Keith Locke in 2006, I quoted the same passge from the Hamas charter as you did. He stated (paraphrasing) "I prefer to look at this other quote which is much nicer...". Does that mean he's not ignorant, but one eyed? Using the Green party website to make my own postcard to "Vote For Me", I inserted a picture of Hamas Children carrying a rocket. I was hoping I would be wrong, but now the Greens seem to have proved me right!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13211957432524530642009-01-12T12:19:00.000+13:002009-01-12T12:19:00.000+13:00Chris I agree with your post.Carol it would be rem...Chris I agree with your post.<BR/><BR/>Carol it would be remiss of any military to not have contingency plans, particularly as regards an opponent of long standing.<BR/><BR/>Notwithstanding all of this, there can only be a solution when both Israel and Hamas (and in fact all Palestinian factions) are prepared to give up something significant.<BR/><BR/>Israel has to allow a Palestinian state that is free from any interference, much as Israel does not interfere with Egypt, Lebanon, Syria or Jordan. The matter of what land and how much of it is a much bigger discussion. The matter of how to provide access for everyone to Jerusalem will be the most difficult to resolve.<BR/><BR/>Palestinians must recognise Israel as a sovereign country and allow it to operate without interference, much as they do not interfere (send rockets into) Egypt or Syria.<BR/><BR/>Until both are willing to let go of the fact that they have hated each other for a very long time, and agree on how to basically ignore each other, there will never be peace.rouppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07446734587426078093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-79856532893739321532009-01-12T11:10:00.000+13:002009-01-12T11:10:00.000+13:00Dear oh dear ChrisAfghanistan, Iraq, the Urewewas,...Dear oh dear Chris<BR/><BR/>Afghanistan, Iraq, the Urewewas, and now this...<BR/>I don't know how we can share a civilised pint anymore.<BR/><BR/>Here's the Socialist Aotearoa report from Saturday's demo n Auckland for you to critique ruthlessly...<BR/><BR/>http://socialistaotearoa.blogspot.com/2009/01/in-our-thousands-and-our-millions-we.html<BR/><BR/>JoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com