tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post7624771279857437941..comments2024-03-29T15:01:27.866+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Politics Is About Choices - Not Tricks.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-30161946578792085702010-12-23T12:53:51.172+13:002010-12-23T12:53:51.172+13:00When Brendan thinks he agrees with Chris, there...When Brendan thinks he agrees with Chris, there's probably something wrong. <br /><br />Politics is about policies and about people. If the policies are wrong, having a more extreme, dogmatic and driven form of these policies must, of necessity, be even more wrong.<br /><br />As to people, I share Madison's distaste for 'soulless weasles' but why should anyone want to replace them with soulless rottweilers?<br /><br />Anonymous, you think it's time for some Socialism. I think it's time for some Social Democracy.<br /><br />That means I have some idea where you stand, where we differ and where we might be able to agree without undue sacrifice of principle.<br /><br />That's a whole lot better than fascistoid yearnings for a big boss who will 'just get things done', irrespective of what precisely gets done, how it's done or who suffers.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-89647328033141806512010-12-22T01:10:31.206+13:002010-12-22T01:10:31.206+13:00"New Zealand’s problems need solutions: wheth..."New Zealand’s problems need solutions: whether they be left-wing or right-wing solutions matters much less than locating a politician with the guts to give them a try."<br /><br />Like Roger Douglas, eh Chris? He always had the guts to inflict solutions on us...<br /><br />Embrace the truth - Goff and Labour are just as much liberal capitalists as Key and National, or Hide and ACT. Time to build real alternatives, but the liberal left seem content to embrace more extreme social engineering (legalising prostitution, banning smacking, etc) in place of society building ;(<br /><br />Auckland's Labour mayor Len Brown is the perfect example of that - tells everyone what they want to hear, but implements pure free market capitalism (bulldoze those heritage buildings)...<br /><br />Time for some socialism :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-11535124910089352032010-12-21T22:06:07.749+13:002010-12-21T22:06:07.749+13:00While I know I'm out of date by a few posts on...While I know I'm out of date by a few posts on this one I have to say it's quite true. The origin of this process isn't from Penn and Marks, it was merely perfected by them. True politicians who stand for something have been fighting a losing battle against those soulless weasels who have been fighting for power merely to have power. That is the type of person who uses this type of strategy, someone who doesn't stand for anything other than simply wanting power for power's sake. Bring on some people with principles any day, I may not agree with all of them but I would at least know who they truly are and what they stand for.Madisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86430522403177662372010-12-21T10:43:55.410+13:002010-12-21T10:43:55.410+13:00Chris
We don't always agree, but that is a go...Chris<br /><br />We don't always agree, but that is a good article - we seem very short on politicians who hold sincere, well grounded philosophical convictions on either the left or the right of the spectrum.<br /><br />In short, the quality of thinking that is presently driving policy, is weak and shaped by short term pragmatism. It is poll driven, and flawed.<br /><br />Give me a conviction politician of the left or the right any day. New Zealand would be much better served.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br />BrendanAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17190324943334170206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-83801346456511226712010-12-18T13:22:11.003+13:002010-12-18T13:22:11.003+13:00I, of course, meant "loosely" not "...I, of course, meant "loosely" not "lossly" but Freud may have appreciated the typo.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76354846644389346702010-12-18T12:55:46.941+13:002010-12-18T12:55:46.941+13:00Olwyn
Of course triangulation doesn't always...Olwyn <br /><br />Of course triangulation doesn't always involve a default to the middle ground.<br /><br />Loz and others are quite right that it often involves a default to right-of-centre neo-liberalism.<br /><br />This, however, is surely preferable to the wholesale, ideologically-fixated pursuit of neo-liberal goals, such as we have experienced (to our enormous cost) in the not too distant past. <br /><br />At this point, pressure is mounting amongst the government's quondam supporters for a more forcefully neo-liberal approach.<br /><br />The charge of poll-driven opportunism and weakness is being repetitively leveled by what I would lossly describe as the Fran O'Sullivan tendency. <br /><br />When stripped of ideology or policy content, the mantra "real politics is about making choices", merely gives aid and comfort to this tendency.<br /><br />Indeed,"real politics is about making choices" is just(and probably considerably more)prone to neo-liberal default than triangulation.<br /><br />I'm genuinely surprised that this isn't obvious.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-5009583446304327722010-12-17T19:12:33.480+13:002010-12-17T19:12:33.480+13:00Further to my comments about Zygmunt Bauman - seem...Further to my comments about Zygmunt Bauman - seems he is regarded as a key influence on new British Labour leader Ed Miliband. (I didn't know that when I posted last night.)<br /> <br />See "The sociologist influencing Labour's new generation", The Guardian (UK), 3/11/2010, at http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/03/zygmunt-bauman-ed-miliband-labour?INTCMP=SRCH<br /> <br />It will be interesting to see whether, under this influence, Miliband is willing to cut through the knots in which the British Labour Party has tied itself over the past decade and a half.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24547049270038701552010-12-17T16:18:24.184+13:002010-12-17T16:18:24.184+13:00Direct user-pays can be removed from healthcare, b...Direct user-pays can be removed from healthcare, but it is not free; somebody always pays.<br /><br />Loz: I don't think there's a strong relationship between what Labour says about economic matters and what they'd actually do if elected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24047873484895894582010-12-17T02:24:10.879+13:002010-12-17T02:24:10.879+13:00Although I agree with the thrust of your piece Chr...Although I agree with the thrust of your piece Chris I don't agree with the origins or what it represents. The New Republic has a great article by Jonathan Bernstein titled "Why 'Triangulation' Is the Most Empty Phrase in Politics"1 that's worth reading.<br /><br />Triangulation justifies the status quo or middle of the road. How do you actually "triangulate" (which requires three points) between two positions of left and the right anyway? Triangulation implies a third position, also known as Tony Blair's discredited "Third Way".<br /><br />There are many traditional left wing policy positions that have always had widespread electoral support such free healthcare and higher taxes on the wealthy. Many polls have shown for decades that a majority of kiwis would support increases in tax for universally free healthcare and education. Triangulation theory would suggest politicians moving to adopt these positions due to populism but no such movement amonst the ranks of politicians exists. The New Zealand Labour Party did even better by being elected with popular socialist mandates in '84 and '87 and then rejecting the mandate it was given to introduce the same "triangulated" policy platforms aspoused as middle road today. <br /><br />Historically, compromised policy platforms just dont show a correlation with the appeal to widespread popularity triangulation suggests they should have. <br /><br />The common hallmarks of a "triangulated" Labour (just like triangulated Clinton and Blair) is not adopting popular reforms but cultivating an image of reform while refusing to control the free market. Phil's pledge to "operate within tight fiscal restraints" while providing "better jobs and higher incomes" may fit well with that definition but it smells just like old fashioned rhetoric... do we really need another term?Lozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12064567381918975446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-88666289395314668182010-12-16T21:12:12.764+13:002010-12-16T21:12:12.764+13:00@Anonymous: “As long as Labour and the Greens refu...@Anonymous: “As long as Labour and the Greens refuse to confront the fundamental toxicity of free market capitalism they will remain part of the problem, not the solution and even reasonable compromise will be impossible.”<br /><br />Amen to that.<br /><br />But Labour and the Greens are each already well aware of the social democratic and ecological analyses and the data that make “the fundamental toxicity of free market capitalism” plain. In which case, why do they largely ignore them? <br /><br />Two reasons, I think:<br /><br />Firstly, regardless of whether the media really do shape the perceptions of most people, politicians believe they do. So, in the world of mediatised politics, too many progressive politicians have been brought to heel. The question “How will this play in the media?” completely overrides “What is the right thing to do according to our principles?” <br /><br />Consequently most politicians – particularly those of the left – seem petrified of media reaction to any sort of ideological discussion, let alone full-on confrontation. And perhaps with some reason: both MSM and the blogosphere are crawling with right wing loons ready to flame and threaten anyone who puts their head above the parapet. The section 59 “debate” in NZ was an object lesson. <br /><br />Secondly, in this strange post-modern consumer capitalist society we inhabit, we have been schooled to live (or at least to attempt to live) with seriously ambiguous value sets and incoherent if not downright chaotic identities. Sociologist Zygmunt Bauman has written about this phenomenon extensively; he calls it “liquid modernity.” Chris alludes to it from a social democratic perspective: citizens who are deeply conflicted on welfare. Others writing from a green perspective have described the paradox of western society which simultaneously desires sustainability and wants to keep all the pleasures of consumer capitalism. <br /><br />Resolving this deep and disturbing paradox requires a party to take a massive risk and at the moment no-one in NZ seems quite willing to take it ... not yet, anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-81620981071119750792010-12-16T09:28:23.014+13:002010-12-16T09:28:23.014+13:00@Victor: The problem with the combination of value...@Victor: The problem with the combination of value identification and triangulation is not that it reflects a centrist position, but that it betrays no position at all. Once you have gained the levers of power by such methods you can do whatever you find expedient, since you have not revealed a position, only a set of sympathies.<br /><br />There is a further question though, as to what politicians actually can do under the present circumstances. It seems that they are all reliant on credit and investment, which are conditional on their implementation of, and maintenance of, neo-liberal policies. <br /><br />In relation to this, one of the most shocking recent events was Julia Gillard's initial response to Assange - declaring him criminal without his being charged with a crime, and even considering taking away his passport, rather than insisting on justice for a citizen of her country. One can only assume that her gut reaction was "Don't offend the Americans, don't alienate the investors," rather than "What are my obligations here?" <br /><br />The problem with triangulation is that it uses sympathies to conceal both priorities and intent, both of which Julia revealed to some extent in her response to Assange, whatever sympathies she expressed in order to get elected.Olwynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50372871575378083522010-12-16T08:37:38.530+13:002010-12-16T08:37:38.530+13:00What social democrats seem unable to grasp is that...What social democrats seem unable to grasp is that compromise can only come as the result of struggle between genuinely competing ideas. It is not possible to struggle for a compromise, it is only possible to arrive at one.<br />Thus we have been through decades of hapless social democrats failing miserably in their attempts to defend the historical compromise between capital and labour, the welfare state.<br />Meanwhile the right has not forgotten its principles, the welfare state was simply the best they could do at a particular point in time and they have aggressively sought to dismantle it in order to progress their own poisonous vision. <br />The only way to halt the relentless move to the right is for the left to put forward a socialist vision to unite people in struggle around. Promising 'kind capitalism', 'a third way' or other variations of leaving power relationships the same is simply not going to cut it.<br /><br />As long as Labour and the Greens refuse to confront the fundamental toxicity of free market capitalism they will remain part of the problem, not the solution and even reasonable compromise will be impossible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-61018339736792855072010-12-15T18:17:09.465+13:002010-12-15T18:17:09.465+13:00The squeezed middle is an offensive political slog...The squeezed middle is an offensive political slogan when almost everybody is being squeezed. A slogan like that runs on the cynicism that the poor will vote for you anyway and the rich never will so we'll try to make an anxious "middle class" feel specially served. It is reminiscent of the ill-advised "mainstream New Zealanders" slogan Don Brash used in the 2005 election campaign. New Zealanders are more tight-knit than the Americans and British and are less forgiving of that kind of politics.<br /><br />But how does Labour expect the electorate to believe they're genuine about running a tight fiscal ship when they've spent half of this term attacking the government for borrowing and spending too little? Could Labour stand firm against strike-prone teachers demanding annual 5% pay rises? Would they really bring themselves to cut government spending or increase GST to remove ourselves from $300m a week of borrowing?<br /><br />There are many apolitical politicans today who don't believe in much and serve their careers first and the people second. How will people believe in someone when their positions change like gusts of wind and are decided by polls, PR advisors, factional in-fighting and focus groups?<br /><br />The inability of New Zealand's politcal class to genuinely tackle New Zealand's problems is starting to create real anxiety about the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26691719854469691292010-12-15T12:22:57.593+13:002010-12-15T12:22:57.593+13:00As Barry Goldwater didn't quite say: "Mod...As Barry Goldwater didn't quite say: "Moderation in pursuit of error is no great vice". <br /><br />Whilst I agree that the current government lacks intestinal fortitude, that's wholly preferable to one that makes the wrong (i.e. dogmatic right wing) choices on a radically large scale and sticks to them out of mistaken ideological rigour. <br /><br />Wishy-washy, slightly-right-of-centre-ism might fail to arrest our decline. But a return to Ruthenasia would kill us off beyond any hope of resuscitation.<br /><br />The price of such massive errors is no small thing, as it is almost always paid in human suffering. <br /><br />In the absence of a solid majority for Social Democratic/Keynesian policies, a skilled triangulator may be the best we can hope for. <br /><br />Let's work to build such a majority, based on a less simplistic view of policy options than currently predominates and let's leave the denunciation of alleged wimps to the neo-liberal bully boys. It's the one thing they're good at.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39045246070975488612010-12-15T11:55:34.808+13:002010-12-15T11:55:34.808+13:00Hear hear!
Well put Chris.
GeorgeHear hear!<br /><br />Well put Chris.<br /><br />GeorgeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-68358143059791654582010-12-15T00:53:32.136+13:002010-12-15T00:53:32.136+13:00Hi Chris, I'm sure you're aware of this al...Hi Chris, I'm sure you're aware of this already, but Goff's lifted the 'squeezed middle' line directly from Ed Miliband.<br /><br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11848303Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46472612707526751942010-12-14T19:21:43.010+13:002010-12-14T19:21:43.010+13:00Thank you Chris, a very welcome column. You are ri...Thank you Chris, a very welcome column. You are right that choices are required. Ultimately the politics of triangulation are self defeating to who ever votes for them as the choices postponed will deliver a bitter fruit.Nicknoreply@blogger.com