tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post7702811135241425050..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Let Sleeping Ghosts Lie.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-17413876864837863502019-07-18T18:14:52.120+12:002019-07-18T18:14:52.120+12:00The Japanese (of course) had Unit 731 - it should ...The Japanese (of course) had Unit 731 - it should be taught in all Japanese schools "it's our history" (not that Japan has a Chinese minority)? <br /><br />I'm reading about the NZ Wars Documentary. Landmarks (The "Legendary) documentary has been all but biffed out. How did we go from a celebration to masochistic self loathing?<br /><br /><i>Belich aims to challenge discourses of scientific racism, colonial military superiority, Pakeha nationalism, monoculturalism and the myth of good race relations. Belich’s histories are best situated in relation to bicultural discourses that advocate equal power sharing of ‘two peoples’, whilst also drawing attention to the injustices of colonisation. In terms of his role in the production of TNZW, and in particular, his collaboration with Stephens, Belich has also been influenced by the ‘anti-colonial’ and ‘tribal’ discourses</i><br /><br />Now it is in every secondary school and what lesson is it trying to tell us? The recent "That's a bit Racist" is just another attempt to get us to accept the decolonising discourse that Maori are on their knees due to colonisation (not the Maori middle class though). I can't find the quote but Eric Kaufmann says calling Trump supporters racist only has them digging their toes in.<br /><br />TNZW appears to be an attempt to disrupt the idea of nation by intervening in cultural memory. I'm wondering if the lesson isn't "if you have a war make a good job of it. Bones make good fertiliser". Many Maori today seem to have some expectation that Pakeha will now roll on their backs in acquiescence? <br /><br />So many twits think one good act deserves another. Gareth Morgan starting a political party then (in a video) emphasising <i>the resources belong to Maori</i> is the silliest thing I've ever seen and now Geoff Simmons thinks he is on to a winner courting the Maori Party ....?<br /><br />Reading the comments on your article in Stuff gives a better idea of what's it all about Alfie<br /><br />"Nice how a lot of people say we should forget about this and move on when they are living with the legacy of what happened to the indigenous people. 27% of the British Emperial forces came here to dispossess Māori of their lands and their survival is something to be amazed at. " etc etc. John Hurleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-58766247690463276692016-08-25T19:30:34.022+12:002016-08-25T19:30:34.022+12:00That is a bizarre response. Maybe I'm not as a...That is a bizarre response. Maybe I'm not as articulate ad I'd like to be but I think my point was clear. We should not be afraid to confront difficult conversations. Not sure why you felt the need for the personal abuse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07802419475979165669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-91691406995900080262016-08-25T12:44:32.496+12:002016-08-25T12:44:32.496+12:00This piece is very refreshing to me, because every...This piece is very refreshing to me, because every now and then I forget how old white people think about history.SHGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-14486597290139730032016-08-24T22:49:00.467+12:002016-08-24T22:49:00.467+12:00We do. Its called Labour Day.We do. Its called Labour Day.Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84834017081643591372016-08-24T12:17:15.472+12:002016-08-24T12:17:15.472+12:00WRon Kjestrup
First comment at 8.37
Repetitive co...WRon Kjestrup<br />First comment at 8.37 <br />Repetitive common sense comment based on false beliefs. When studying societies it is apparent that a so-called civilised society is one where there has been a concerted effort to place limits on the baser side of human behaviour. This has never resulted in long-term success, and is a dynamic process with tides of effort advancing and receding. At present we are in a recession of civilisation.<br /><br />Also sensibleness can't be pinned down in a universal way ie your sensibleness may be to say 'Give up, it's the only sensible thing to do'<br />and mine may be to say 'F.. off, this is extortion'.<br /><br />Your second comment about serious discussion being what civilised societies do. Can you count off the number of civilised societies having serious discussions about the troubling violence that besets the people of the world right now? Why for instance, looking across at Australia, haven't we been able to stop with serious discussion, their withdrawal of human rights to New Zealanders, their close neighbours and 'friends' and allies?<br /><br />You are not a deep thinker are you Ron K.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1169123845521673382016-08-24T08:38:00.477+12:002016-08-24T08:38:00.477+12:00It's not out of the blue. And yes, it will hig...It's not out of the blue. And yes, it will highlight serious discussion. But that's what civilised societies do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07802419475979165669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-71292539658699600182016-08-24T08:37:31.108+12:002016-08-24T08:37:31.108+12:00It's always interesting g to see how afraid NZ...It's always interesting g to see how afraid NZers are of their own history. Surely a civilised society can discuss these things sensibly. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07802419475979165669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-21338665940328183512016-08-24T08:16:55.215+12:002016-08-24T08:16:55.215+12:00Mchael King
"In the event there were no exped...Mchael King<br />"In the event there were no expeditions to Norfolk Island or to Samoa because the necessary transport was not secured. But there was an invasion of the Chathams Islands. Two Taranaki tribes then based in Wellington, Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga ki Poneke, hijacked a European vessel in 1835 and had themselves—a total of 900 people—delivered to Chatham Islands. There they takahi'd or walked the land to claim it; ritually killed around 300 Chatham Moriori out of a total of around 1600, and enslaved the survivors—separating husbands from wives, parents from children, forbidding them to speak their own language or practise their own customs, and forcing them to violate the tapus of their culture, whose mana was based on the rejection of violence. <br />Was this a superior form of colonisation to that imposed by European on Maori? Did it respect the dignity and customs of the colonised? Did it acknowledge the mana whenua of the tchakat henu or indigenous people of the Chathams? It did not. It was what might now be called an exercise in ethnic cleansing. When Bishop Selwyn arrived in the islands in 1848, it was to discover that the Maori called Moriori "Paraiwhara" or "Blackfellas"; and it was to report that the Moriori population continued to decline at a suicidal rate as a consequence of kongenge or despair. Moriori slaves were not released and New Zealand law was not established on the islands until 1862, twenty years after they had become part of New Zealand. And it is that twenty years of neglect of fiduciary duty on the part of the Crown that is the basis for the Moriori claim to the Waitangi Tribunal, heard in 1994, but still not reported upon. <br />The point in raising the Chathams experience is not to use it as a stick with which to beat Maori—especially in view of what I have been saying about not visiting the sins of the fathers, or mothers, onto subsequent generations. I draw attention to it in the spirit of a historian who says, Take care. The evidence of history is unanimous on only one point. It shows us that no race or culture is inherently superior or inferior to another; and we all have skeletons in our ancestral closets that represent instances of behaviour of which we cannot be wholly proud by today's standards of ethics and morality. "<br />http://www.sof.org.nz/origins.htm<br /><br />The other thing is historical grievance (or trauma), this is narrative and narrative has been shown to be the conduit for poor outcomes for indigenous peoples.<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4001826/jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82383245200191326382016-08-24T07:05:51.895+12:002016-08-24T07:05:51.895+12:00Hi Chris
Perhaps Mr Key is preparing the nat...Hi Chris<br /> Perhaps Mr Key is preparing the nation for the next such deployment we don't know about yet.<br />Cheers David J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66074421202175860032016-08-23T15:19:38.482+12:002016-08-23T15:19:38.482+12:00"Sleeping ghosts, like sleeping dogs, should ..."Sleeping ghosts, like sleeping dogs, should never be needlessly awakened"<br /><br />Mmm - essentially the study of history is the digging up of 'sleeping ghosts', albeit written mostly by the winners who use it for their own ends. Do you think perhaps we should remain in ignorance of our pasts? What about the notion that 'if we don't know where we come from we don't know where we're going to'?JanMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11427849619290293011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-82599376416183159152016-08-23T14:14:57.289+12:002016-08-23T14:14:57.289+12:00It will be easy for English to make up a procedure...It will be easy for English to make up a procedure and homily for a ceremony recognising the principles that were fought over. He is in the Party that is the master of flexibility and political adroitness. As the saying goes:<br /><br /><i>These are my principles. If you don’t like them I have others.</i><br />(Quote Investigator found this used in 1800s NZ, long before Groucho Marx to whom it is often attributed. It is something we are good at hitherto unrecognised! Now how can we market it?<br />QI found this version of the quip in a New Zealand paper dated October 18, 1873 [NZT]:<br /><i>He brought in the Provincial Loan Bill, declaring that, if the House did not accept it, he was prepared to adhere to his original proposal. It was something like the American legislator — “Them’s my principles; but if you don’t like them — I kin change them!”</i>greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84351546696843361342016-08-23T14:13:04.649+12:002016-08-23T14:13:04.649+12:00Great post Chris. And later you can tell the story...Great post Chris. And later you can tell the story of Kiwi trade unionists maimed and killed by representatives of the NZ govt in industrial disputes over many generations. Some of these actual strike-breakers were farmers sons. Then we can declare a holiday for these victims too.peteswriteplacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474922953916383101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13322480955990147762016-08-23T13:23:12.915+12:002016-08-23T13:23:12.915+12:00The settlements of the last twenty five years have...The settlements of the last twenty five years have changed the context for the commemorations, especially in the Waikato. Sure the settlements are not a complete restoration of rights, but they have comprehensively changed the relationship between iwi and government. And just about everyone would say for the better.<br /><br />So a commemoration of the land wars, primarily the Waikato and Taranaki makes a lot more sense than it would have in the past.<br /><br />Will they raise old issues and grievances? Yes, but not with nearly the angst that would have been previously the case.<br /><br />Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-29383967924899404802016-08-23T12:45:31.960+12:002016-08-23T12:45:31.960+12:00A nice holiday to commemorate the NZ Wars will rea...A nice holiday to commemorate the NZ Wars will really be looked forward to by those lucky enough to be in work of course, and it will be especially looked forward to by flag-waving separatists who will have new locations to advance their completely unsupportable two governance 'partnership' interpretations of the Treaty of Waitangi with maximum angst. We seem to like poking sticks into wasps’ nests.<br />The rights and wrongs of the battles and the confiscations will be lost in the recriminations and cries of 'Honour the Treaty' from those who have wilfully misread the Treaty or who have never read it. Nothing succeeds in sanctifying or demonising soldiers or warriors and their causes more than emotive histories of battles and war in general. Already I’ve encountered people who think that ‘Parihaka’ was a bloody massacre, which it wasn’t.<br />Wars are always predicated on injustices. Trying to unravel the tangle of what how and why is not easy, long after the event. Surely efforts today are being made with recognitions and settlements under Treaty of Waitangi claims..?<br />Such a holiday of 'commemoration' will simply add another layer of heat to responses to the real question that will still loudly go begging: Is the Treaty of Waitangi a document that embraces separatist development, or isn't it? <br />For those keen enough to seek that answer, I'd recommend Sir Apirana Ngata's very full expose on 'The Treaty of Waitangi’. His view, as one of the greatest Maori leaders to emerge post 1840, is that it is a document of oneness under one law, not separation. How commemorating wars that arose from breaching this central message of the Treaty can be done without providing more fuel to separatist arguments I can’t imagine. What emphasises differences more than war?<br />Alan Rhodes<br />Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158473327999595285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-23394817698212913272016-08-23T12:31:55.138+12:002016-08-23T12:31:55.138+12:00"Will the vanquished shrug their shoulders an..."Will the vanquished shrug their shoulders and say, “No worries, Bro, it was a long time ago”? "<br />Considering Waikato Tainui had to fight long and hard for a treaty settlement that started out with a first offer of $20 million, and ended up with something that was still a very small percentage of what they lost, maybe not. But as Maori seem on the whole much more generous than bureaucrats and politicians, maybe they will. :) However, many Pakeha commentators will be saying "it was a long time ago" – without the no worries. More like, "it was a long time ago why did they have to get anything at all."Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46871752850718427412016-08-23T12:21:47.587+12:002016-08-23T12:21:47.587+12:00Sleeping ghosts, yes i think it is healthy for a N...Sleeping ghosts, yes i think it is healthy for a Nation to compost it's past so the next generation can prosper (having come in from the garden). Those who want a commemoration are those obsessed with waving dirty laundry. National is on board because they need the Maori Party and National needs to stay in power as it's backers are property developers and associates who risk large financial losses from an alternative to John Key and Diamond Jim Hoskings. It is ironic that one of the measures used to defeat Maori was mass migration:<br /><br /> "I will tell you the real facts, and I think I may say there are only two or three men now living who can speak with equal authority. The Public Works’ Policy seemed to the Government the sole alternative to a war of extermination with the natives. It comprised the construction of railways and roads, and the introduction of a large number of European immigrants. The Government argued that if they could greatly increase the population of the North Island and open up the means of communication through the Island, and at the same time give employment to the Maoris, and make their lands really valuable, they would render impossible any future war on a large scale. They recognised that in point of humanitarianism there was no comparison between the peaceful and warlike alternatives. "<br />https://croakingcassandra.com/2016/07/27/a-former-prime-minister-and-minister-of-finance-on-immigration-policy/ <br /><br />We value academic freedom but Maori Studies is a vipers nest.jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45701122666508617542016-08-23T12:13:58.295+12:002016-08-23T12:13:58.295+12:00It has turned up out of the blue!.
I hope it does ...It has turned up out of the blue!.<br />I hope it does not become another day for protest and vandalism though I suspect that I may be wrong.<br />I am guessing that National's coalition with the Maori party is the reason.<br />This seems to be MMP at its worst.<br /><br />I agree with Chris, sleeping dogs should not be aroused.Pollynoreply@blogger.com