tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post8301390687181502987..comments2024-03-29T03:41:12.499+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: No Comparison: Why Tame Iti Has No Role In "Smith's Dream"Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20453798809172111862012-09-03T18:32:32.484+12:002012-09-03T18:32:32.484+12:00just wanna ask again - how many people were shot b...just wanna ask again - how many people were shot by Tame Iti and the others - none. How many people were harmed by Tame and the others - none.Is it any wonder that Maori have real problems with a justice system from another cultural base (England; a system that fails to provide justice for Maori; and, a system supported by a society that "is scared witless of Maori men (of any shape or size)and Maori men who carry ta moko, even more. But it aint Maori men that have been using their guns to shot the "whites" in this country. Its been white men, hunters, David Gray, the list goes on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-89293626556520139442012-05-31T19:26:47.132+12:002012-05-31T19:26:47.132+12:00Where did that silly "this man" poster a...Where did that silly "this man" poster atop this thread come from?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20220087907350442102012-05-31T10:21:43.764+12:002012-05-31T10:21:43.764+12:00Opportunity or not Shelley, Hazlitt, Burns and Bla...Opportunity or not Shelley, Hazlitt, Burns and Blake would have made piss poor fascists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-27357365877393883452012-05-31T08:09:18.342+12:002012-05-31T08:09:18.342+12:00I hold an opinion that most romantics have a natur...I hold an opinion that most romantics have a natural tendency to become fascists when oportunity arises. That is quite visible in the poster you placed on top of your post. People removing themselves from reality and deciding to live in romantic world of "fighters for justice". I don't think the Tame Iti's group was of extreme danger to New Zealand but sure, good they were stopped before they had a chance to become one.skalusaninihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14437949412636007989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-5657158414409722032012-05-29T18:58:31.164+12:002012-05-29T18:58:31.164+12:00Iti and his friends needn't worry... if Stephe...Iti and his friends needn't worry... if Stephen Jo- I mean, if Volkner does seize power and bring the American advisors in, there will be plenty of people prepared to take up arms to defend the country.<br /><br />Until that time I have a question for the apologists: why should social democrats reject Police and the Rule of Law? <br /><br />Being left-wing does not make you an anarchist or a terrorist - that is a right-wing meme.<br /><br />Why should Iti get off with a tip-off and a word sideways that the raid was coming?<br /><br />Much is made by Iti apologists of the fact that it wasn't the 4 (eventual) defendants who were carrying molotov cocktails in the evidence admitted in trial. That is because the organised group were successful in having a huge quantity of police evidence ruled inadmissable.Tim G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46828640731447582682012-05-29T16:31:57.614+12:002012-05-29T16:31:57.614+12:00I wonder if any of those - like Don Franks - tryin...I wonder if any of those - like Don Franks - trying to paint these guys as either inept clowns or lacking any serious intent have read the now widely available 155 page affidavit.<br /><br />If not, can I suggest you do. It is quite clear from the intercepted communications that both Iti and Kemara were prepared to kill and to die. If the cops had not stopped this, someone would have been killed ..nothing surer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-35337700300448057622012-05-29T16:14:35.293+12:002012-05-29T16:14:35.293+12:00Excellent summation Chris given the amount of hypo...Excellent summation Chris given the amount of hypocrisy shown by others.<br /><br />And to those who suggest this could all have been resolved over a cup of tea, you are absolutely right. It's incomprehensible that the activities of this group weren't known by a large proportion of their friends, family and associates. Why not a single one of them had the moral fortitude to sit them down and talk some sense into them before this got to the stage it did, is a very pertinent question.<br /><br />This was only going to end one of two ways, and fortunately it was the conclusion that didn't involve death that eventuated. <br /><br />We can be thankful that it was only the reputations and temporary loss of liberty for a couple that ended up being sacrificed.BobbyDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15797091728137321343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38574987540012061102012-05-29T13:04:09.026+12:002012-05-29T13:04:09.026+12:00Thank anonymous 11:36, I only mentioned Iti in the...Thank anonymous 11:36, I only mentioned Iti in the majority of my statements because he is the only defendant I was familiar with, however I've also found his previous conviction was overturned, although on slightly odd grounds. As far as I knew none of the others had the same high profile or convictions, they are also not drawing the same name recognition with the general public. <br /><br />Also, doesn't having a firearms license make you in part responsible for the actions of those unlicensed persons operating a firearm under your supervision? Honest question as I don't know the NZ law on this and it would actually push to explain why Rangi might have received the same sentence as Iti, not because he was Maori but because he woulk by law be deemed responsible for Tame's actions as well. IF that's not how the firearms act works then I've got no idea why the hell his sentence was the same.Madisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45361190810837171762012-05-29T09:06:11.145+12:002012-05-29T09:06:11.145+12:00Molotov cocktails were apparently made and thrown ...Molotov cocktails were apparently made and thrown at the September camp, although none of the 4 convicted were proven to have personally done so. <br /><br />As a musician I was once hired as part of the entertainment of some rich guys partying in a block out in the sticks. Other entertainment was the repeated discharge of several guns and the destruction of an old barn with dynamite.<br /><br />Different lads, same game.Don Franksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90505197899095248312012-05-29T08:12:57.124+12:002012-05-29T08:12:57.124+12:00Victor,
The fact that the system doesn't seem...Victor,<br /><br />The fact that the system doesn't seem to do true justice is an issue to be dealt with by other people. I don't think it's done a very good job, but to have these guys claim they have been singled out for treatment for all sorts of subversive reasons because they are unhappy with the way they were treated in the courts shows how little their treatment differed from others. <br /><br />The operation to arrest them was a total disaster but as far as I can tell the courts treated them as well or poorly as any other. For that portion they've received what any other citizen seems to be able to expect and for that I see no reason for them to bang on about being special.Madisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-47158166815716192452012-05-29T06:33:51.626+12:002012-05-29T06:33:51.626+12:00The “pie and penthouse” brigade have arrived to de...The “pie and penthouse” brigade have arrived to defend their patch. The ‘spook squads” were donkey deep in Op 8.Tiger Mountainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-52379895024015222182012-05-29T01:56:36.146+12:002012-05-29T01:56:36.146+12:00but morse wasnt just playing in the ureweras, she ...but morse wasnt just playing in the ureweras, she was doing shady deals in wellington's back streets. there is plenty of reason to think she and her fellow travellers were looking beyond just flag burning to make an impact. <br /><br />and its hilarious those suggesting the cops should just have had a word in iti's ear and it would all have gone away. what makes him deserving of this special privilege? why not extend that to those planning to manufacture drugs, or rob banks, or carry out fraud? they surely are only guilty of a few youthful enthusiasms same as iti up until the moment they actually rob that bank etc. <br /><br />itvshould also be noted that iti is nothing special; people regularly get sent to gaol for arms act offences<br /><br />insiderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-20504939077507992932012-05-28T23:36:50.454+12:002012-05-28T23:36:50.454+12:00Madison writes: "and no firearms license.&quo...Madison writes: "and no firearms license."<br /><br />This just goes to show how much you know about this case. Rangi Kemara, who was sentenced to 2.5 years jail, had a valid NZ firearms license and has no previous convictions whatsoever.<br /><br />As for the "bodyguards for imperialist interests in Iraq" defence at trial: this was one defence advanced at trial but not by all the defendants. The defence relates to the October 'camp' where someone with experience in the security industry (Rau Hunt - he was a former defendant) conducted various training exercises. Three of the defendants (Kemara, Bailey and Signer) were not present when that training was conducted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54338202840454188702012-05-28T22:01:55.532+12:002012-05-28T22:01:55.532+12:00I would like to know how Don Franks justifies Molo...I would like to know how Don Franks justifies Molotov Cocktails?peterpeasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258344040688251441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1397453566785860932012-05-28T21:43:57.698+12:002012-05-28T21:43:57.698+12:00The reality of present day NZ is Valerie Morse sho...The reality of present day NZ is Valerie Morse shows up like a blow-fly on Anzac Day and burns the flag and she then feels she doesn't have to explain what she was doing with a molotov cocktail as the evidence gathering was technically illegal.jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54450398847329231662012-05-28T20:10:10.180+12:002012-05-28T20:10:10.180+12:00For once, I agree -- of course he's no Smith. ...For once, I agree -- of course he's no Smith. But, beyond a bit of posturing, he made no public claim to be. I don't know who created this propaganda image, probably as effective within some circles as it is disingenuous -- was it his doing, or the doing of some ardent, opportunistic groupies?<br /><br />So no Smith, but then neither is he this guy, though you seem to have convinced yourself otherwise: http://www.kiwipolitico.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kurtz-iti.png<br /><br />LLewhttp://www.kiwipolitico.com/index.php?author=27noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86747039279512962692012-05-28T19:29:11.534+12:002012-05-28T19:29:11.534+12:00I'll add 2 cents here
Op EIGHT was run by NZ ...I'll add 2 cents here<br /><br />Op EIGHT was run by NZ Police. Not SIS. Not GCSB. Not the SAS. There was some ASSISTANCE from those groups, but the guys running it are the same guys who investigate rapes, murders, and robberies.<br /><br />There was no giant conspiracy, no attempt to "prove ourselves" after 9/11.<br /><br />I knew several of the guys running it. Salt of the earth guys. There was no "racist conspiracy." These are guys who pride themselves on their professionalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31164704271544001902012-05-28T18:41:26.960+12:002012-05-28T18:41:26.960+12:00Chris you are the only one I know comparing Tame I...Chris you are the only one I know comparing Tame Iti and the others with Smiths Dream.<br /><br />You are simply setting up a straw man to justify your inherent 'white southern man' conservatism.<br /><br />As for comparing anonymous 3.07s very normal and reasonable distrust of a police force, that is proven to tell lies as naturally as it breathes, with support for Pol Pot, or a lack of understanding of the need for a justice system, that is just ridiculous.<br /><br />What it is reasonable to do is compare the actions of Tame and the others with other things happening at the moment and what the states response is to them.<br /><br />Surely injecting kiwifruit with antibiotics poses a far more serious risk to public safety, and it was very likely a conspiracy to break the law, but what chance is there of a 50 white men in suits going to jail for it? <br /><br />Will we see the ninja's descending on Te Puke?<br /><br />How many will go to jail over Pike River where the white skinned owners and managers of a mine preferred killing a bunch of workers to taking a few health and safety measures that might have cost them a bit of money or lost production time?<br /><br />And so it goes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-53233984521271507412012-05-28T16:43:26.924+12:002012-05-28T16:43:26.924+12:00"If there had been a real revolutionary movem..."If there had been a real revolutionary movement going the accused would have made the dock an international megaphone to inspire the movement."<br /><br />Everyone seems to be missing the main point here. This is it.guerilla surgeonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2420764737148010932012-05-28T15:53:44.819+12:002012-05-28T15:53:44.819+12:00Surely one may harbor some distrust for the rozzer...Surely one may harbor some distrust for the rozzers without being a Pol Pot fan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-39601691578485477472012-05-28T15:45:03.583+12:002012-05-28T15:45:03.583+12:00Madison
"I think they are just experiencing ...Madison<br /><br />"I think they are just experiencing business as usual"<br /><br />Therein lies the rub.<br /><br />Perhaps people possessed of offensive weapons and expressing thoughts subversive of the ruling order should all be as firmly dealt with by the law, as has Mr Iti. <br /><br />But, for better or worse, that's not currently the sort of country we live in. And so the sentence handed out to the would-be Che Guevara of the Ureweras seems out of kilter with normal usage and, hence, less than just.<br /><br />This impression is all the more compelling, when set against the backgound of the recklessly excessive incursion by the police into the lives of ordinary people in pursuance of this matter and by the suspicion that this was ultimately a case of "round up the usual suspects". <br /><br />As to the wisdom of banging the guy up, incarceration didn't do any harm to the subsequent careers of Gandhi, Nehru, Mandela, Kenyata, Devalera or, for that matter, Hitler.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-30726938149682409042012-05-28T15:34:39.055+12:002012-05-28T15:34:39.055+12:00I have read Smith's Dream, and I must say the ...I have read Smith's Dream, and I must say the comparison is a bit over the top. However, there is definitely a lot to be concerned about over the jailing of Iti, he was given a sentence based in part on the idea that he was in a private militia, however no such charges were proven. Why the should he be jailed for so long? Was there some pressure put on the judge to 'send a message'?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756577987173700191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-42752510500187858312012-05-28T15:25:54.505+12:002012-05-28T15:25:54.505+12:00So, presumably, Anonymous@3:07PM, in your world th...So, presumably, Anonymous@3:07PM, in your world there'll be no need for policemen? <br /><br />Because in your world everyone will be equal and all property will be shared? <br /><br />You know, like Cambodia under Pol Pot?<br /><br />And the people who complain? Well, that's simple. You just pull a plastic bag over their head.<br /><br />No need for courts, or jails, or policemen either, come to think of it.<br /><br />Utopia.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38443820390715201722012-05-28T15:24:58.827+12:002012-05-28T15:24:58.827+12:00I have never attempted to defend Tame although I h...I have never attempted to defend Tame although I have enjoyed his sense of theatre and have been amused at the fear a tattooed, fifty something, diabetic can engender amongst many New Zealanders. This whole debacle is about the management of the threat that this little group provided. All evidence pointed to them being fantasists and generally disorganized and incompetent and most of that evidence was collected by the police. Given that Tame is a known identity and had even had Gerry Brownlee open one of his painting exhibitions the police response was hugely over the top. I have often stated that a personal approach or phone call to Tame would have nipped the whole thing in the bud and would have cost a fraction of what has been spent so far. Given that it has taken so long to progress the trials and get to this point, further sentencing seems nonsensical. <br /><br />What compensation are the innocent families and children going to receive for having their homes and lives violated by the extreme actions of armed police. If it happened to any of us we would be incensed. It is obvious that the police used the flawed terrorist act to rough up some annoying environmentalists and maori activists and so become terrorists themselves. <br /><br />If the police had really acted intelligently and tactically they wouldn't have taken such extreme action because they have effectively created a Che Guevara persona for Tame and imprisonment will make him even more of a martyr for radical maori.Dave Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428353657153292616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15951328940299001152012-05-28T15:07:04.787+12:002012-05-28T15:07:04.787+12:00"Left" identification with and faith in ..."Left" identification with and faith in the cops, now, THAT's depressing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com