tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post8834646172231756007..comments2024-03-19T22:29:13.835+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: "Something Hugely Dramatic": The 2014 General ElectionChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-17459868614994989342014-09-28T10:40:50.831+13:002014-09-28T10:40:50.831+13:00A leftward turn will permanently consign labour to...A leftward turn will permanently consign labour to minority party status but a right turn will also do the same as they will lose the last of the little credibility the party has left with the general public!!!<br />It will be a long road back.... GJEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-42055205035511192122014-09-25T19:13:31.419+12:002014-09-25T19:13:31.419+12:00We cant block immigration...it is the only growth ...We cant block immigration...it is the only growth strategy the government have.<br /><br />pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-91650744968152059412014-09-25T18:07:03.692+12:002014-09-25T18:07:03.692+12:00I've just been to the Daily Blog, I must confe...I've just been to the Daily Blog, I must confess for the first time. Bomber Bradbury has never really floated my "since he was on afternoons with Jim Mora, and whenever he was asked what was on his mind read one of his columns – which I thought was cheating :-). You are joking though right? No you're not of course but the level of invective there is nowhere near what you find on whale oil – believe me I know. But if you want to engage on an intellectual basis, perhaps you could answer these questions or at least consider the statements.<br /><br />Neoliberal economics, which I assume you agree with is based on various formulate or algorithms or whatever they call them, "borrowed" from physics. When physicists discovered this, they laughed, because these things are so old they regarded as totally out of date and useless. So where does that leave you?<br /><br />Neoliberal economics is also based on assumptions about human behaviour which psychologists abandoned about 50 years ago if not more. So where does that leave you?<br /><br />Why do most if not all of the most successful economies of the twentieth and twenty first century not have a bar of neoliberal economics?<br /><br />Roger Douglas, and Jenny Shipley both promised us that if we adopted neoliberal economics we would be living in a workers paradise full of highly paid and highly skilled jobs. Where is it? Why can't our kids get jobs?<br /><br />Thomas Picketty has pretty much shown that unrestrained capitalism means that the wealth gap will keep growing and growing. Others who I can't be arsed looking up again have shown that this is a bad thing. Where does that leave us? :-)<br /><br />I hope this is all coherent enough for you.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66659937321514339362014-09-25T12:54:50.291+12:002014-09-25T12:54:50.291+12:00I won't say that you don't understand my a...I won't say that you don't understand my arguments jigsaw, but you do ignore them. That doesn't mean they lack coherence. And you obviously haven't searched the blogosphere enough if you haven't found those rather hateful right wing sites where people blag on about how terrible Polynesians are and so on. I wasn't actually referring to the oily whale, whose only sin was to block me, but rather his sycophants who spew vitriol over every dissenting view. Not that dissenting views last very long. And his blog could even be regarded as moderate compared with some. You really must get out more.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4104544154624277012014-09-25T10:57:58.323+12:002014-09-25T10:57:58.323+12:00Labour needs a visionary in the mold of Lange. A ...Labour needs a visionary in the mold of Lange. A wit but a compassionate,caring man.Where are we to find one.<br />colette salenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-16070987492198794922014-09-25T09:50:54.287+12:002014-09-25T09:50:54.287+12:00GS - You obviously read what you want to read but ...GS - You obviously read what you want to read but the last time I read the daily Blog-and the time before... it was full of some pretty nasty things. Using wingnuts may not be very nasty but it certainly shows a lack of a coherent argument in which you are at least consistent. I don't see that the right in NZ is much interested in blocked dissenting views they are just too busy getting on with doing things and not just talking about them. Hard to find anyone on the right with quite the vitriol of Bradbury I would have thought.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-83446360784978423832014-09-25T09:41:14.177+12:002014-09-25T09:41:14.177+12:00To me Key's statement is a red-flag; it is Hel...To me Key's statement is a red-flag; it is Helen Clark's arrogance all over again yet to the media and liberal elite it is "that's okay with us"jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-40497930710366981052014-09-25T09:37:47.434+12:002014-09-25T09:37:47.434+12:00Riding high on his magnificent victory, Key is ask...Riding high on his magnificent victory, Key is asked what he wants to be remembered for:<br />“Going back to that main point I think it was Muldoon who famously said said "I want to leave the country in no worse condition than I found it".<br /><br />"Isn't that a low ambition?"<br /><br />"Yes I want to leave the country in better condition than I found it and if theres something (I genuinely beleive) It would be lifting our confidence to a certain degree about how we see our selves in the world and what we think we are capable of achieving. Now I think individually there is masses of ambition that sits out there there but can we actually take that and convert that to take the oppurtunity . <br />And I always thought what was happening in the opposition of politics (of course they would oppose National, that's their job actually apart from everything else) but it was a bit negative about out place in the world. So we played a bit about whether people coming here was a good or bad thing whether people should invest here was a good or bad thing, or wether we have a trade agreement with parts of Asia was a good or bad thing, but actaully in my mind, the reason that I want to say yes to those things is because they are the oppurtunities that reflect our oppurtunities to both get wealthier (which is all about what you can do with that money) and then ultimately the oppurtunities for Kiwis. I'd like New Zealanders to feel (after my time as Prime Minister) they have become more confident outward looking nation more multicultural.<br />------------<br />Before the election you will remember there was the poll on foreign ownership :<br /><br />18000 replied to the poll. At the end of the program 94% said No and 6% yes.<br /><br />And there was a Reid Research poll:<br /><br />"The poll shows 62 percent of voters want tighter restrictions on immigration, while only 35 percent say leave it.<br /><br />"I don't think taking away the welcome mat is the right thing to do," says Prime Minister John Key.<br /><br />Unsurprisingly, 84 percent of NZ First voters want immigration restricted. Sixty-eight percent of Labour voters agree, along with 58 percent of Green Party voters."<br /><b>Despite Mr Key being on the wrong side of public opinion, he won't budge.</b><br /><br />"New Zealand is a country that has been built on migration. We've done very well out of it and I think we should be very cautious about taking knee-jerk steps," he says.<br />….<br />Labour was equivocal and the Greens impotent. (and wasn't it strange the way key went into Labour territory before the election as though he wanted to win at any cost – you would almost think he was in it for the Property Council or something)<br /><br />Gareth Morgan talks of a Blue-Green Party<br />" The election hasn’t provided answers for people concerned to keep the Kiwi way of life – including those who voted National."<br />despite the vote; the majority I see a bit of a hole that might come and bite Key (if progressives like Chris would allow it – Shearer at the Hornby Working Man's Club).jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-90581941320943126262014-09-25T07:47:26.475+12:002014-09-25T07:47:26.475+12:00Jigsaw, blocking dissenting views seems to typify ...Jigsaw, blocking dissenting views seems to typify the right in this country. I suggest an experiment. Construct an identity, go to the whale oil blog, register a mildly dissenting opinion more than once – and see what happens :-). A few wing nuts thrown around is pretty mild by comparison. If you want to see hate, the right is what it's all about. God help us, look at the stuff spewed out about the Greens, (stemming from fear of course as most hate does.) In the blogosphere. When even your paragon of right-wing virtue Du Fresne mentioned that Russell Norman looked competent :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-3855051540486939732014-09-25T07:24:25.687+12:002014-09-25T07:24:25.687+12:00Thanks Chris
for accuracy's sake it is 48% of ...Thanks Chris<br />for accuracy's sake it is 48% of voters not 48% of Nzers a figure not dissimilar from those who eschewed the great contest alltogetherJohn Stansfieldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45361378351756956592014-09-24T21:07:48.976+12:002014-09-24T21:07:48.976+12:00Readers may be interested in what Labour Party sto...Readers may be interested in what Labour Party stood for in 1922 considering its support continued to dramatically grow. The following is a statement issued by the Labour Party after that election.<br /><br />http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19221212.2.80&srpos=6&e=--1915---1922--100--1<br /><br />The statement below is from the Labour candidate for Wellington North a decade later as the depression carried on. It demonstrates how completely different Labour is now to the party that gained such steadfast support from the people of New Zealand.<br /><br />http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19351121.2.216.23&srpos=13&e=01-01-1929-01-04-1937--100--1Lozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12064567381918975446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-72166042241683890792014-09-24T20:47:01.549+12:002014-09-24T20:47:01.549+12:00May I add some further thoughts. Chris has written...May I add some further thoughts. Chris has written an interesting piece and it deserves reflection. <br /><br />Labour can still modernise and rebuild but it must take account of the realities of the what the outstanding consultancy group, The Providence Report, calls the "new New Zealand". This new New Zealand has some of the following characteristics:<br /><br />- A strong and growing Asian population<br />- A vibrant Maori economy<br />- Maori and Pasifika youth no longer fighting the battles of their parents<br />- Large number of relatively wealthy baby boomers<br />- Confident cultural identity - no more cultural cringe<br />- Growing importance of China - no more tyranny of distance<br /><br />How does Labour relate to these trends? Not very well I think. Listening to the chatter of left-wing blogs I hear talk of "left" "right" "center". For example there is a comment above the talks about New Zealand needing a <i>a strong workers party</i>. What does that term mean to the new New Zealand, or even 95% of New Zealanders?<br /><br />The NZ Herald had a headline after the election that talked John Key making "HisTORY" - Geddit? He is a Tory. But what does the word "Tory" mean to the new New Zealand, or even 95% of New Zealanders? I would suggest, not a lot. The word is no longer relevant.<br /><br />I understand some of where Labour is coming from. I was a member of the Princes Street branch of the Labour Party back in the 1970's where the language was about socialism, the evil Tories, the unions and so forth. There are MPs in the Labour Party who cut their teeth on such language. But that New Zealand is gone and is being replaced by a new, vibrant, diverse and confident country that cares very little for the ideological battles of the 1970's and 80's. I understand that many on the progressive side of politics would argue the fundamental battle remains the same: labour versus capital. Much of the current angst being expressed by the Left it seems, to me at least, to be expressed in terms of the ideological battles of the past. I would argue that the language used do not resonant with either the Waitakere Man, the Somali taxi driver, the Chinese student or the South African accountant. Or even Lynn of Tawa.<br /><br />Over 1 million New Zealanders were born overseas. Think about that, and what their perspective is, why they came here and what they want. Labour talks about the missing million. But, does it talk to the million new New Zealanders? How many of these people voted for Labour? For example, how many Asian MPs does Labour have now?<br /><br />Labour needs to speak to those 1 million and until they do, Chris may well right about the dying bull.<br /> <br />Tinshedhttp://tinshed.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38212431403080101492014-09-24T20:35:06.344+12:002014-09-24T20:35:06.344+12:00Hi Abroad,
Have never read Ayn Rand, and certainly...Hi Abroad,<br />Have never read Ayn Rand, and certainly don't consider myself font of right wing wisdom, but if sarcasm is your thing, then you're obviously having a good day.<br />For me, one of the good things about the National Party's re-election is the fact that the population is is not going to be hit with further taxation. I'm tired of politicians, (of either stripe), seeing the work force as nothing more than a source of funds, but Labour in particular seem extremely fond at ensuring that no cent goes untaxed. I believe that their planned CGT would not have cooled the housing market in Auckland, it certainly hasn't in Sydney, and seemed to be nothing more than a cynical attempt to filch more money out of kiwi's pockets. Especially so, when the clumsy rules around the disposal of family home were finally revealed.<br />GAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-12982220508204078912014-09-24T17:28:17.444+12:002014-09-24T17:28:17.444+12:00Okay Anonymous O font of right wing wisdom and Ayn...Okay Anonymous O font of right wing wisdom and Ayn rand enthusiast ...instead of dissing what you so misleadingly characterise as "the Left" in NZ ...why don't you provide a detailed account of what will be so good about three more years of a Key government in NZ?<br />Davo's comment that Labour is gnatlite is pertinent here .....?Abroadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-92107527453489446642014-09-24T17:11:35.355+12:002014-09-24T17:11:35.355+12:00Calling people who disagree with you 'wingnuts...Calling people who disagree with you 'wingnuts' seems to typify the left of politics in this country who as someone said recently, define themselves by who they hate more than anything else. Certainly the left seems to have terrible problems moving beyond defining their principles to actually producing policies that people might actually vote for.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-62033495188901563062014-09-24T17:04:16.325+12:002014-09-24T17:04:16.325+12:00Chris: Surely you're not implying that the Lef...Chris: Surely you're not implying that the Left is all just Bull, are you?<br />;)J Bloggsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2721312517870119082014-09-24T15:55:36.008+12:002014-09-24T15:55:36.008+12:00In the two previous elections Labour did everythin...In the two previous elections Labour did everything in their power to destroy Key including some grubby underhand tactics of their own. And they got hammered at election time for it.<br />This time Labour had Hagar and Dot Com take over while pretending they had no involvement and got nuked for their pains.<br />Reading the leftwing conversation since such an historic defeat there is still much denigration and abuse aimed at Key.<br />I have no doubt that over the next 3 years the Left's inability to control their anger will gift Key a fourth term. <br />And the abuse is simplistic and downright stupid.<br />Voters know that Key is clearly smarter than his abusers and in fact did do a good job of steering the country through a global meltdown. <br />And he did not grind the faces of the poor doing it.Sure you can argue that he could have done more but claiming he is a monster (read the Standard) plays into the right's hands. <br />Most people who voted for him do want to help the poor and the hopeless - the right just disagrees how best to go about it.<br />And until the left realize that demonising Key means they are insulting the people who they want to vote for them.<br />Thanks in advance for giving us on the Right a fourth term. <br /> Mark Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-65199553860824696882014-09-24T15:41:05.594+12:002014-09-24T15:41:05.594+12:00Anon @6.38:
Johnny Boy has already spelled some o...Anon @6.38:<br /><br />Johnny Boy has already spelled some out and they are just the tip of the iceberg.<br /><br />Please get your head out of the sand: THERE IS NO "LEFT" NOW!! They are Right and Rightish with the Greens sitting clearly at the Centre. <br /><br />Labour has to get back to it's core roots and re-build from there.dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-43044742628600167932014-09-24T15:27:53.351+12:002014-09-24T15:27:53.351+12:00Could someone please cite the name of a single Lab...Could someone please cite the name of a single Labour MP who (were he or she not in parliament) couldn't possibly be envisaged as voting for one of the following?:<br /><br />1. NZ First<br />2. The Greens<br />3. Mana(before its Faustian pact with Mr Dotcom)Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-69360081378386340462014-09-24T14:38:58.989+12:002014-09-24T14:38:58.989+12:00Grant, you're not automatically nut job or an ...Grant, you're not automatically nut job or an idiot, only when you express a nutty or idiotic opinion. Like your opinions on socialism. Secondly, trying going over to the whale oil blog and dissenting there. I went over there and one whinger was going on about migrants and how they needed to speak English. And all I said was "gosh I bet Maori wish they had somebody like you around to make sure all those immigrants spoke Maori around 1840." Or something similar and I was jumped on by the oily whale's sycophants and banned by the oily whale. So while your opinions might get a rough ride over here – tough. You wingnuts get a far better reception than you give :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31489794106560696622014-09-24T06:53:16.603+12:002014-09-24T06:53:16.603+12:00I agree with Patricia. This election gives us noti...I agree with Patricia. This election gives us notice that the old Kiwi is now gone, the seeding of an American style self-absorbed culture that began in the eighties has now borne mature fruit. <br />Ted Lees (Lees Marine) exemplified the old self-reliant, socially responsible Kiwi. I was struck by the irony (and symbolism) in this article<br />http://www.marine-engines.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Ted-Lees-feature-03-13.pdf<br /><br />.....with this <br /><br />"In 1980 Ted sold Lees Group to NZ Forest Products in a profitable and friendly takeover. But in 1986, Ted says, Elders Finance, a company banned by the Australian government, did a buy-out of NZ Forest Products and began stripping the company and its subsidiaries. Unable to stand it, Ted, aged 67, bought back Lees Marine in 1990 and cranked it up again."<br /><br />......appearing next to a picture with the caption:<br /><br />"Ted being inducted into the New Zealand Business Hall of Fame in 2009 with PM John Key"<br /><br />Ted could probably be forgiven for missing the connection with Key's job history, given his age at the time. The results of this election indicate that younger NZ-ers do not care or perhaps even admire the Gordon Gekkos of this craven new world.Brewerhttp://brewerstroupe.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-44092589044281547602014-09-24T06:38:35.841+12:002014-09-24T06:38:35.841+12:00Anonymouse = Grant
Thanks for the replies, guys.
...Anonymouse = Grant<br /><br />Thanks for the replies, guys.<br />Very interesting to note that those who, like me, have a right of centre view are automatically "nutjobs" and "idiots". Such tolerance of dissension....<br />Two things, if I may:<br />Perhaps Davo can tell us just what the deals are that Key and his gang have in mind. If he has inside knowledge that will protect the rest of us from the damage that he so ominously predicts, then perhaps he could share....<br />Secondly, it's interesting to see that my comment about the left's opinion of the New Zealand electorate went unchallenged.<br />G<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50853724957067632342014-09-24T00:15:38.606+12:002014-09-24T00:15:38.606+12:00Labour is far from dead. This election's resul...Labour is far from dead. This election's result was only marginally worse than the last one. The Labour core vote is rock solid at 25% and the return to genuine Labour values from the pit of neo-liberalism will see a revival if the internal enemy can be quelled.Len Richardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41543365783987411792014-09-23T21:54:50.287+12:002014-09-23T21:54:50.287+12:00Eloquent and entertaining as always Chris.
I wou...Eloquent and entertaining as always Chris. <br /><br />I would add one element to your metaphor. The wounded Labour bull has spotted a mirror leaning against the arena wall. But no matter how many times it charges and smashes headfirst into the stone, it does not realise it is fighting itself.Thanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12131215180965582008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-425355821243186532014-09-23T21:17:32.258+12:002014-09-23T21:17:32.258+12:00Except, as Bryan Gould points out only 1 in 3 vote...<br />Except, as Bryan Gould points out only 1 in 3 voters actually voted the Nats, so it certainly isn't "full spectrum dominance"...http://thestandard.org.nz/the-election-that-left-one-third-of-us-behind/ <br /><br />But agree with you about Labour, unfortunately.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14931458944485834874noreply@blogger.com