tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post3251217640323232339..comments2024-03-29T11:07:51.893+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Weep, Zealandia, Weep!Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76944339383108798102015-04-30T16:18:40.332+12:002015-04-30T16:18:40.332+12:00Dear Lord, Charles, but you are a simpleton!
Have...Dear Lord, Charles, but you are a simpleton!<br /><br />Have you never heard of primary sources?<br /><br />The written records of the time? <br /><br />Newspapers. Official publications? Poems. Popular songs. Works of art and literature. Personal correspondence.<br /><br />Read, look at, listen to and absorb the primary sources and you will garner a very direct understanding of what people thought and felt in the past.<br /><br />Here, for example, is a poem of the day, published in the Truth newspaper just after the outbreak of WWI, and written by the American socialist, Ralph Chaplin:<br /><br />The Red Feast<br /><br />Tear up the earth with strife<br />And give unto a war that is not yours;<br />Serve unto death the men you served in life<br />So that their wide dominions may not yield.<br />Stand by the flag – the lie that still allures;<br />Lay down your lives for land you do not own.<br />And spill each other’s guts upon the field; <br />Your glory tithe of mangled flesh and bone.<br />But whether in the fray to fall or kill<br />You must not pause to question why or where.<br />You see the tiny crosses on that hill?<br />It took all those to make one millionaire.<br /><br />So, you see, Charles? Not so different from the feelings of a great many of us who walk this earth a century later.<br /><br />Sometimes (if I may paraphrase the old adage) it is wiser to do nothing and be thought a fool, than to engage with your keyboard and remove all doubt.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-53978483317715049502015-04-30T13:00:33.461+12:002015-04-30T13:00:33.461+12:00Ok I accept 'historical revisionism' is be...Ok I accept 'historical revisionism' is best not used as a criticism, as it is always done of course and mostly quite validly & usefully. What I meant as a fault is judging the people in the past by taking ourselves back to that time, say 1914, and then moralising in our current shoes and hats. Whereas only if we were born and raised in the years leading up to 1914, could we know really what we are talking about, and what we would have thought & done. That can't be done.Charles Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-29319489704227499642015-04-30T11:29:54.814+12:002015-04-30T11:29:54.814+12:00Powell: No, we do not fight for values. I would fi...Powell: No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government.<br /><br />Thatcher: Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values.<br /><br />Powell: No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed.<br />....<br />The progressive answer is open borders (via the back door) and suppress dissent as "racist". Isn't that what Spoonley does when he calls a register of foreign house buyers "a throwback to racism" and states (re the influx from India and China) "we <i>need</i> their skills for the NZ economy!". jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84989637082601617822015-04-30T08:09:11.318+12:002015-04-30T08:09:11.318+12:00I think the renewed interest in ANZAC day could be...I think the renewed interest in ANZAC day could be because we are being swamped by a multicultural nothingness?jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64200233540632058262015-04-29T16:54:19.028+12:002015-04-29T16:54:19.028+12:00"Personally I find it difficult to conceive o..."Personally I find it difficult to conceive of any honest, relevant and informative History that is not constantly revised."<br /><br />Exactly. He's generation of historians revises previous generations' views of historical events, either because new evidence has come to light, or we view the old evidence of a new light, or just to make their reputation. But, there is some extreme fringe revisionism going on seeking to rehabilitate Hitler and so on. Best to stick to recognised historians :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-87654880277100284422015-04-29T09:32:34.417+12:002015-04-29T09:32:34.417+12:00"Are you not guilty of historical revisionism..."Are you not guilty of historical revisionism"<br /><br />Interesting choice of words. At what point, Charles, do you consider History should be declared inviolate? How should this be achieved? By legislation? Should those "guilty" of holding History to the mirror of our evolving morality and knowledge be prosecuted?<br /><br />What do you think, for example, of the revisionist view that slavery involved gross injustice? Should that particular History have been frozen at the point where the practice was generally accepted as part of the natural order of the universe, part of God's plan? Do you think the History of the United States or this country should be freed of the revisionist view that the indigenous people were mistreated?<br /><br />Personally I find it difficult to conceive of any honest, relevant and informative History that is not constantly revised.Brewerstroupehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13011600547966200031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-48008118249320030482015-04-28T18:30:53.401+12:002015-04-28T18:30:53.401+12:00This is a good description of what Galipoli was al...This is a good description of what Galipoli was all about.<br /><br />https://medium.com/the-bridge/the-battle-of-gallipoli-17880bfb6fddDavo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-47886950394408577382015-04-28T12:18:17.400+12:002015-04-28T12:18:17.400+12:00My Grandfather, George Samms, who had left school ...My Grandfather, George Samms, who had left school at 12 and became an apprentice iron molder, ran away to the Boer war when he was 15! (Apparently what the British did in SA was unbelievable although he never talked about it) He came to New Zealand in 1909 and by 1916 when conscription came in he had two children. He didn't register the second child because, he said, they would have said he had the second child to avoid being conscripted. He was called up as a man with one child. He refused to go, and refused to say his beliefs were on religious grounds, that war was just so so wrong, so he was sent to jail. (He went to Court with his suitcase and just didn't come home). My mother said the teachers at school were hard on them, that they got white feathers in the letter box and that times were hard even after the war because he couldn't get a job. (How did they pay their mortgage I would like to know). How I wish I had asked him and my Mother more. So now when I hear the drums of war beating I just wish that there were more and more men and women who would also say NEVER AGAIN. But somehow I doubt that there will <br />be. Watch the 1957 film Paths of Glory. It is a good anti war film.<br />Patriciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01509686441858091630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-6887979018984241002015-04-28T12:04:13.394+12:002015-04-28T12:04:13.394+12:00Are you not guilty of historical revisionism, as a...Are you not guilty of historical revisionism, as a habit? You judge the past, and worse, it's always either bad because the right ruled or good because it was a great achievement of the left. Do you see all history as an evil Tory plot against the wonderful innocent and pure left?<br /><br />And secondly, I'm pretty sure this current phase of crass nationalism and jingoism etc and ridiculous bull about our nation 'coming of age' at Gallipoli took off under your Helen Clark regime. She pushed it like mad. I don't know why. I presume you would have to say it's because she was a closet tory?Chales Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-12140829576554588972015-04-28T09:47:09.616+12:002015-04-28T09:47:09.616+12:00"defending the values of democracy and freedo..."defending the values of democracy and freedom"<br /><br />Jeez Wayne. If a foreign war has ever been fought for these values I have yet to hear of it.<br />If it was indeed a serious motivation how come we are not at war with Israel, Saudi Arabia and a host of oppressive regimes with which we chum up?<br /><br />Here's a clue: Victors use their political dominance to create a version of historical events based on their own propaganda. <br /><br />If you seriously believe that WWI, WWII, Iraq I, Iraq II, etc. were fought for democracy and freedom I've got half a dozen bridges up here in Northland I can let you have cheap.Brewerstroupehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13011600547966200031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-74887529260116632042015-04-28T07:50:59.160+12:002015-04-28T07:50:59.160+12:00Great post Chris...Great post Chris...The Flying Tortoisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09212913610390768373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1619423949104690622015-04-27T22:13:11.940+12:002015-04-27T22:13:11.940+12:00"SBS sport reporter Scott McIntyre has been f..."SBS sport reporter Scott McIntyre has been fired for posting ‘disrespectful’ tweets about Anzacs on Anzac Day."<br /><br />So reminiscent of the appalling and disgraceful treatment of "those bloody conchies" by the self righteous ANZAC society during and after the First World War.Tuấnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09020984081846278752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8062084159279749302015-04-27T21:49:26.031+12:002015-04-27T21:49:26.031+12:00Re: Some men volunteered / some did not = so need ...Re: Some men volunteered / some did not = so need for conscription by August 1916<br /><br />I'm sure I read somewhere (probably when studying history at Uni in the 90s) that farmers and farmers' sons were the very least likely to volunteer in that pre-conscription (1914-16) period. And the gist of the article was that this refusal went well beyond any notions of farming as some sort of essential industry. <br /><br />They weren't, of course, alone. A survey carried out in 1915 found that about 40% of all eligible NZ men were not interested in serving. But farmers appear to have been disproportionately among that group. And unlike the highly-principled conscientious objectors, they didn't have the courage of their convictions. They got to quietly stay at home without the terrible consequences that the COs had to live (and quite often die) with.<br /><br />Which is interesting when you consider that farmers (particularly Dairy farmers) formed the backbone, the key support-base, of Massey's right-wing, deeply reactionary Reform Party. The Party that was all about King and Country and loyalism and the British Empire and not being a 'socialist shirker'.markusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45521159653264669512015-04-27T19:42:54.416+12:002015-04-27T19:42:54.416+12:00Swiss armed neutrality - The defence strategy NZ s...Swiss armed neutrality - The defence strategy NZ should be following<br /><br />https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/04/17/swiss-armed-neutrality-the-defence-policy-nz-should-of-followed/<br /><br />100+ years and nothing learnedJamienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84182739304693013242015-04-27T17:33:20.289+12:002015-04-27T17:33:20.289+12:00One diamond amongst the rough was the MTV document...One diamond amongst the rough was the MTV documentary on Saturday night, Tides of Blood fronted by Sam Neill. One of the best made pieces of television on the ANZAC history and tradition I have ever seen. And absolute exemplary piece of Television.(A NZ/Aus Film Commission series?)<br />It was stunning. Incredibly well written, presented, shot, edited. By far the best take on this history, I have ever seen. <br />Available on line and highly recommended.<br />History and our take on it changes ever so slowly. In concert with the times. <br /><br />http://www.maoritelevision.com/tv/shows/anzac-2015/S01E001/anzac-tides-bloodPaul McGrailnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59599858168901253462015-04-27T16:34:20.400+12:002015-04-27T16:34:20.400+12:00A story for you Chris...my partner and I were on t...A story for you Chris...my partner and I were on the Gallipoli penninsula in 2009,mid winter at a hotel in Eceobat.Only us.I called in to a small shop to buy a beer and one of a few Turkish men said 'You are a Kiwi' 'I am' I said. 'How did you know?' He paused then said 'Kiwis eh" Boer war,1st World War, 2nd World War, Korean War, Vietnam War' I spotted where he was heading and triumphantly said 'But we are not in Iraq' He looked at me for a while and said 'Perhaps you Kiwis are starting to learn something' I often think of that man.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-19407334917658321662015-04-27T16:32:58.672+12:002015-04-27T16:32:58.672+12:00was never a day of pride for the servicemen I knew...was never a day of pride for the servicemen I knew....was a time to remember the people they served with and the ones that didnt come home, often it bought feelings of anger to the surface.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57881261504454707892015-04-27T16:27:45.826+12:002015-04-27T16:27:45.826+12:00@ Wayne Mapp 27/4 12.09
You might want to check y...@ Wayne Mapp 27/4 12.09<br /><br />You might want to check your facts re dates for universal suffrage there Wayne. The UK didn't have universal male suffrage until after the war; 1918. and for women 1928. The actions taken by the British establishment to counter the movement for womens suffrage were brutal. The USA had theoretical universal suffrage by 1920 but for blacks this wasn't implemented properly until 1965 (if then). As for "native" populations in most of the British empire, voting was a distant hope far over the horizon. Germany had universal male suffrage by 1871 at the latest and Austria by 1896 for men and 1918 for women. If ordinary working class people in the British Empire thought they were more free and democratic than Germans and Austrians they were deluded.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage#Dates_by_countryGrantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50232042084747398052015-04-27T16:10:38.254+12:002015-04-27T16:10:38.254+12:00My father was always suspicious of the rah rah stu...My father was always suspicious of the rah rah stuff. He refused to join the RSA until quite late in life, because he thought they glorified the war – well his war. I thought he was being a bit harsh to be honest. Many of these guys never had the same sort of mateship as they had in wartime, so naturally that was what they remembered. And the RSA sent somebody to his funeral to scatter poppies on the grave which I thought was nice.<br />But then I think of his uncles and grandfather who joined up some before World War I, some during. Some joined for a square meal, some because they were caught up in the patriotism. Two grandfathers and a step grandfather only one emerged relatively unscathed. One lost an arm, one eventually lost a leg, and the other's lungs were never quite the same but not so bad. He'd been a miner anyway. <br />And I often wondered what they thought of the whole affair. But they never talked about it except the funny bits. I sort of wish I'd got hold of a tape recorder and recorded them for posterity. None of them wrote much, functionally illiterate basically – well not my dad.<br />Let's face it, it was a war between empires, and I think that guy that suggested we would have been better off to sit it out was probably quite right. We should probably sit out this Middle East one as well.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28878618974882275482015-04-27T16:07:12.022+12:002015-04-27T16:07:12.022+12:00The truth always seems to come out in the end, how...The truth always seems to come out in the end, however slowly. Every year the fallen are remembered and the debacle of Galipoli comes under closer scrutiny. <br /><br />This scrutiny can only be positive and ultimately healing. Unless the truth is revealed and the lies are exposed then nothing will have been gained.<br /><br />Replying to a question on the impact of the 1981 Springbok tour John Key once made the comment: "history is a thing of the past and we should really be more aspirational and look forward"......<br /><br />It is not hard to weep for Zealandia. Katnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-88442540694302978302015-04-27T15:17:21.866+12:002015-04-27T15:17:21.866+12:00Do have faith in our kids. They won't stuff up...Do have faith in our kids. They won't stuff up as we and our ancestors have.peteswriteplacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474922953916383101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9852460440880894222015-04-27T14:35:05.812+12:002015-04-27T14:35:05.812+12:00Neil Anderson - death rate as in chance of getting...Neil Anderson - death rate as in chance of getting killed. Surely this is obvious from context. Obviously the numbers of officers and men were not the same.<br /><br />Chris is correct to rail against the self congratulatory mythmaking style of war commemoration (as practiced by TV channels).<br />However, I think it's easy to go too far the opposite way into the 'Toffs deliberately get the working classes slaughtered to increase their bank balance' school of history , which is equally false.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22077444289385559882015-04-27T14:22:18.428+12:002015-04-27T14:22:18.428+12:00Remembering the needless dead is part of the solut...Remembering the needless dead is part of the solution to war. People are remember the awful human cost. <br /><br />It's also a coming together to assert pride in a national identity not based on race. It's based on standing up for our way of life. It's symbolic. <br /><br />That's why 100s of thousands turn out. It's become our national day of pride. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25540788293095600452015-04-27T13:17:08.816+12:002015-04-27T13:17:08.816+12:00Here in a rural village in Otago, we had the usual...Here in a rural village in Otago, we had the usual sweet lies at the cenotaph.<br /><br />Then we went inside and talked of peace, and the lack of difference between nations.<br /><br />I do not think we are a typical community, but I think it is a sign of the changing times.<br /><br />We will continue to remember, for whatever the reasons, whatever the lies, the sacrifice of those young men was real.<br /><br />But we will start to remember the promise made not long after then, a promise made and a promise forgotten every day since.<br /><br />That promise was "never again". It is about bloody time we all remembered that.<br /><br />peace<br />WAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-43567484720844742712015-04-27T12:09:45.196+12:002015-04-27T12:09:45.196+12:00Chris,
I am not disagreeing with you about Massey...Chris,<br /><br />I am not disagreeing with you about Massey. But even you would have to concede that by the standards of the day Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the US were democracies (and in New Zealand women had the vote). <br /><br />Hence they all validly thought they were defending the values of democracy and freedom. And the US, and especially Wilson had no love of empire<br /><br />Yes, part of it is myth - in most of the Empire the people did not have a say in their government. But a large part of it is truth, especially as it related to us. <br /><br />We were the beneficiaries of empire - our origins as a nation (post 1840) stemmed from it. And we thought of ourselves as a modern democracy. In fact we thought of ourselves as the most modern in the world (and to a significant extent still do). <br /><br />You of all people know you don't have to agree with a particular govt for the basic premise to be true.<br /><br />And Neil, I suggest you re-look at the meaning of the phrase "highest death rates". Because on your analysis New Zealand has little to complain about with 18,000 dead since as a proportion of the whole of the WW1 dead, it is quite small. But for us it was 2% of the population.Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.com