tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post3882956131661643565..comments2024-03-19T22:29:13.835+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: The Incorrectables: Or, Why Judith Collins Won't Resign.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-29154565250575704092013-01-04T12:11:31.640+13:002013-01-04T12:11:31.640+13:00hi Chris, Sean Fliegner here. On reflection Jigsaw...hi Chris, Sean Fliegner here. On reflection Jigsaw is right: name calling by me is self indulgent. <br /><br />Collins is clearly capable and articulate. She has deliberately decided to withhold the Binnie report from all of us, and from Bain - against all of us, we paid for the report, and we are all stakeholders in the criminal justice system. We have a right to know. <br /><br />Against Bain, he has been acquitted found "not guilty." He has a right to see what's been written about him.<br /><br />It's usually only commentators who do not go to court, especially who do not go to the criminal courts who say 'we don't need the Privy Council', 'they got it wrong', 'how would they know' etc<br /><br />Read the privy council Bain decision:<br /><br />http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0705/S00225/david-bain-v-the-queen-privy-council-judgment.htm <br /><br />*the jury was mislead on matters of real importance<br /><br />*an expert witness changed his evidence, but this change was not given to the jury<br /><br />*material about motive by the father to kill was kept away from the jury, when this material was broadly consistent with other evidence from other witnesses about the father<br /><br />*this other evidence was also not given to the jury<br /><br />*a police officer giving evidence to the jury, gave incorrect evidence, later agreed that his evidence was incorrect, that he may have "mislead" the jury but the jury only got his incorrect version (about the glasses said to have been worn at the time of the attack)<br /><br />*the man who examined the Bain household computer for times (relevant to timing of events) was not wearing a watch. Repeat: not wearing a watch. The police officer with him was wearing a watch but<br /><br />"the constable’s watch, having no second hand and no divisions marked between the five minute intervals, was not a very suitable one for making exact measurements. It moreover appeared that it had at the relevant time been 2 minutes fast."<br /><br />Anon - you say Collins got it right: on timing of events, and the computer times - would you put your freedom in the hands of one expert witness not wearing a watch, and a police officer with a watch but with no second hand - when in the Bain case minutes and seconds were important ?<br /><br />and on it goes ...<br /><br />The criminal justice system belongs to all of us. We paid for the Binnie report, lets see it.<br /> Sean Fliegnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13700949912156395612012-12-28T18:53:46.905+13:002012-12-28T18:53:46.905+13:00You 'belive' David Bain is guilty? Based o...You 'belive' David Bain is guilty? Based on what?<br /><br />After having read the Privy Council's decision and now the Binnie report, based on the evidence, they reached the right conclusions.<br /><br />Unfortunately, Judith Collins political ambitions have done a great disservice to David Bain and the New Zealand justice system.Kevin Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03348361198223152214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2736940399983873172012-12-19T21:37:22.733+13:002012-12-19T21:37:22.733+13:00@ Grant Hay ... I’m not sure that the labels (left...@ Grant Hay ... I’m not sure that the labels (left, right, somewhere in the middle) necessarily help. But, yes, there does seem to be a group that believes that if the process doesn’t produce the desired result, the process must have misfired. Eggs and omelettes – maybe fine. But breaking a few real people?Jack Scrivanonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41395090015167018702012-12-18T14:39:23.019+13:002012-12-18T14:39:23.019+13:00@ anonymous 3.56
If there is any truth in what yo...@ anonymous 3.56<br /><br />If there is any truth in what you say then it is also fair to observe the opposite of the socially conservative right. They are generally more willing to believe in the guilt of an accused person and content to see them railroaded through a flawed judicial process into an undeserved prison sentence. When the system is proven to be flawed the usual response is "tough! got to break some eggs to make an omelette"...Grant Haynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57648084097734186822012-12-17T15:56:47.610+13:002012-12-17T15:56:47.610+13:00Everything, anon, everything.
The left is usually ...Everything, anon, everything.<br />The left is usually more ready to believe that the accused is innocent, and that if they are guilty, then it is not their fault anyway, somehow.<br />The Herald is shamelessly left and has been for a long time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46287165052906813892012-12-17T13:47:25.529+13:002012-12-17T13:47:25.529+13:00I still believe David Bain is guilty of murdering ...I still believe David Bain is guilty of murdering his whole immediate family - parents, two sisters and younger brother. The only alternative would be his father - but his suicide is not creditable - and david bain's fingerprints are on that rifle too. He he was found not guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. he has yet to prove his innocence, despite the clumsy attempts of Binnie to help him in this area. Good on Crusher Collins!<br /><br />The only other possible scenario would have been David coming home to find that his father had killed the rest of the family and then David shot his father!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952914908453937218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25494844925315260482012-12-17T08:35:24.171+13:002012-12-17T08:35:24.171+13:00What have left and right got to do with Bain's...What have left and right got to do with Bain's guilt? Herald 'left' Yeah right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9713243565346138232012-12-16T21:13:00.760+13:002012-12-16T21:13:00.760+13:00AW, c'mon since when has Judith Collins EVER m...AW, c'mon since when has Judith Collins EVER made a mistake?peterpeasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258344040688251441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2952561847474236592012-12-16T21:08:43.214+13:002012-12-16T21:08:43.214+13:00The Herald is incredibly biased on this issue, in ...The Herald is incredibly biased on this issue, in that David Bain is totally innocent. Shame on the Herald for leading a one-sided crusade, when they don't actually know the truth either.<br />I am boycotting this paper from now on. Hopelessly left.<br />David can enjoy mince pies and coffee in his backyard, Robin and family enjoy nothing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-336297762412126442012-12-16T21:06:02.731+13:002012-12-16T21:06:02.731+13:00When people behave publicly, rightly or wrongly. t...When people behave publicly, rightly or wrongly. they are going to attract names, rightly or wrongly.<br /><br />The test is in the argument.peterpeasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258344040688251441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-338360044458002932012-12-15T19:38:43.370+13:002012-12-15T19:38:43.370+13:00 Pretty hopeless when people resort to calling Jud... Pretty hopeless when people resort to calling Judith Collins names- moron, cretin and the like-shows a distinct lack of ability to argue a case I would have thought.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50159824569558087442012-12-15T17:53:34.091+13:002012-12-15T17:53:34.091+13:00Chris
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
But I do...Chris<br /><br />I agree with you wholeheartedly. <br /><br />But I don't think it's just our venal, arrogant and narrow-focused establishment that's so recurrently resolute in defence of injustice. <br /><br />I'm often equally shocked by juries of my fellow members of the common herd, for whom the concept of "reasonable doubt" doesn't seem to mean anything.<br /><br />Perhaps there's a link between these two phenomena. If so, I'm not sure what it is.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1711553210383907012012-12-15T10:39:32.326+13:002012-12-15T10:39:32.326+13:00I thought I'd supply a link to papers in NZLJ ...I thought I'd supply a link to papers in NZLJ on Eichelbaum report as mentioned earlier by Paulus.<br />Eichelbaum was played like a marionette. <br />http://peterellis.org.nz/docs/2007/2007_francis_new_evidence.pdf Richard Christiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341434730751992999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8149443633829458612012-12-15T10:38:13.609+13:002012-12-15T10:38:13.609+13:00Thank you, Olwyn! Much better! I knew there was so...Thank you, Olwyn! Much better! I knew there was something wrong with that final sentence.<br /><br />Now corrected.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-44969061007638435472012-12-15T10:16:43.483+13:002012-12-15T10:16:43.483+13:00This sad case reminds me of the Erebus Inquiry som...This sad case reminds me of the Erebus Inquiry some years ago and how Mr. Justice Mahon was crucified after he found the AirNZ Management were responsible.<br />His phrase, "Orchestrated Litany of Lies" is now folklore! he was set upon by the business community and it killed him eventually.<br />Collins is a cretin albeit an intelligent one and a real Gnazi.Mudwhumpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86010241806807999262012-12-15T08:20:16.054+13:002012-12-15T08:20:16.054+13:00Sean is dead right, an independent DPP such as her...Sean is dead right, an independent DPP such as here in NSW where I now practise is needed. The NSW DPP has been given total independence under the DPP Act here. He does not run cases on to trial because the police want to carry on. The fact of the matter is there is also no cosy relationship like there is in NZ between local police and the Crown Solicitor. So the key is the Police here KNOW that they have to do their job properly, as the DPP will not wallpaper over any defects or carry on if the evidence is not there. And here is another surprise you do not see in NZ, if the DPP considers on an appeal there has been a miscarriage of justice, he does not fight on as the Crown always do in NZ regardless of the merits, he recognises what is the just result. <br /><br />After the recent " prima donna performance of the Minister" in Bain's case it is now impossible to conclude justice can be done. Whether he was in fact guilty or innocent, no longer matters. After the Minister's recent performance he has now lost any chance of achieving justice. Ever.<br /><br /><br />And he should be compensated on that basis, if for nothing else.<br /><br />I am now acutely embarrassed as a New Zealander at the systemic institutional corruption in the NZ justice system. <br />Rmj1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59873674902489221642012-12-14T21:02:29.309+13:002012-12-14T21:02:29.309+13:00Shouldn't that be "Better by far that ten...Shouldn't that be "Better by far that ten innocent people remain incarcerated than the corrupt NZ establishment that put them there be ever held accountable"? To me it makes more sense that way, or have I missed something?<br /><br />Olwynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22844743947302851852012-12-14T20:55:59.622+13:002012-12-14T20:55:59.622+13:00Just back from overseas and it's almost offici...Just back from overseas and it's almost official.<br /><br />Trust me brothers and sisters, we're a joke. Even to our own moko.<br /><br />100% pure - now 97% of rivers unswimmable.<br /><br />Leaders in social justice - now leaders in rich-poor inequity rate.<br /><br />Welcome, Borat. Hello, international ridicule for eons; thank you, John Key.<br /><br />akAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-21187515849620996742012-12-14T20:54:32.061+13:002012-12-14T20:54:32.061+13:00The problem is one of arrogance and Ms Collins has...The problem is one of arrogance and Ms Collins has it in spades...The Flying Tortoisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09212913610390768373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41086763775778159322012-12-14T20:19:42.467+13:002012-12-14T20:19:42.467+13:00So in other words, even though there is a chance t...So in other words, even though there is a chance that Bain is guilty, pay him compensation anyway, just because some foreign high-powered judge advises the govt to do this?<br /><br />Very glad Judith Collins has a good, cool head on her shoulders. What about justice for Robin, who had his name wrecked and sullied. Cries and whispers and no real evidence there.<br /><br />Anon again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50273741846448103702012-12-14T17:32:51.466+13:002012-12-14T17:32:51.466+13:00It has not gone unnoticed the disturbing pattern a...It has not gone unnoticed the disturbing pattern and trend emerging around our Minister of Justice & ACC - mysterious leaks of confidential reports and private information over her control to newspapers, with the same players seemingly always involved - David Fisher, Adam Bennett and Whaleoil - seemingly right on top of everything before other mainstream media, with obstruction of natural justice and lack of procedure fairness being applied to affected parties - e.g, Binnie report & Bain, ACC Situation Report & Pullar/Boag, etc, and the use of leaks from her office to counteract anything negative. <br /><br />If Collins expect others to comply with the State Services Code of Conduct she should start to walk the talk.<br /><br />Key is certainly giving her plenty of rope...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-31057751171216930312012-12-14T15:08:56.351+13:002012-12-14T15:08:56.351+13:00Hi Chris, Sean Fliegner here - it's very wron...Hi Chris, Sean Fliegner here - it's very wrong that Bain hasn't been given a copy of the report (as at time of this post anyway). Collins is a moron: flinging dung at Binnie because she doesn't like his conclusion. <br /><br />But Chris, there is a larger issue: the storm trooper tactics with dotcom, the unlawful dealings with him, the "terror" case that wasn't, the unlawful surveillance there, the GCSB unlawfully spying in NZ, Zaoui <br /><br />There's a consistent failure by the Crown in its corporate sense, to obey the rule of law. <br /><br />This is an extra feature, in addition your remarks. Let's remember that Thomas was framed, with evidence planted.<br /><br />It's not often that readers of your pages will speak up for 'the rule of law.' But these aspects of 'the rule of law' -due process, -full disclosure, -trial by jury, -trial by an impartial tribunal, -rigorous but honest policing, -independent and fair prosecuting ... are important for all of us. Because these safeguards thwart the abuse of power by the State, and when applied prevent innocent going to prison, preserve personal privacy, and our rights to demonstrate and disagree with the government.<br /><br />It the risk of looking perverse, I argue that 'the rule of law' and holding the State, including the police, and spies and ministers to the rules is a live issue for all kiwis including any on the left.<br /><br />We in NZ need a change in culture. Where are the independent voices crying out against Collins and her ilk ?<br /><br />In terms of reform: we need an Office of Director of Public Prosecutions (as in NSW) with statue guaranteed independence. In Labour, Greens, rank and file members can and should take up the cudgels in holding ministers, police, spies, prosecutors to 'the rule of law.'<br /><br />Just saying.<br /><br />sean fliegnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-55645008543459418052012-12-14T14:58:02.061+13:002012-12-14T14:58:02.061+13:00Chris - Your last sentence. Yes you did hit it (I...Chris - Your last sentence. Yes you did hit it (IMHO)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70216473100450514172012-12-14T14:41:15.971+13:002012-12-14T14:41:15.971+13:00There's a reason why constitutionalists have l...There's a reason why constitutionalists have long theorised the separation of powers between executive, legislature and judiciary. <br /><br />In this case, we seem to have all three embodied in a single individual: Judith Collins, Minister, MP and judge.<br /><br />The phrase 'banana republic' comes to mind. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-74282429410055145252012-12-14T14:04:50.281+13:002012-12-14T14:04:50.281+13:00To: Anonymous@1:22PM
In the last sentence I was t...To: Anonymous@1:22PM<br /><br />In the last sentence I was trying for a note of bitter sarcasm.<br /><br />Clearly, I didn't hit it.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.com