tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post4150227514833123586..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: In Defence Of Conservative Leftism.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-30115150159134242092016-12-30T14:28:59.383+13:002016-12-30T14:28:59.383+13:00^Incoherent bullshit. Who else is going to manage ...^Incoherent bullshit. Who else is going to manage WINZ if it's not the government?<br /><br />It's a responsibility of the democratically accountable legislature to make laws which address people's concerns and change people's lives.<br /><br />Please tell me which viable model you would have for WINZ if it is not run by the government?manfredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05864320667710466331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24258356280215324222016-12-30T10:46:13.497+13:002016-12-30T10:46:13.497+13:00Johnathan Haidt uses the metaphor of the elephant ...Johnathan Haidt uses the metaphor of the elephant and it's rider. the progressives have concentrated on the rider ignoring the basic human nature (the elephant - Boas preached that there was no human nature, except basic instinct). One thing that has stood out in social policy over the last 25 years is a denial that there is a moral hazard/free rider problem amongst beneficiaries. For example Anton Blank dismisses family size as "unhelpful" when referring to PI child poverty. <br />Haidt also says conservatives understand human nature better than liberals. You can observe that regarding immigration and it is a situation which reminds me of an episode in the old <i>Andy Griffith Show</i> where another Gubers "girl" is all over his good looking friend and Guber says "that's because he's my <i>friend</i>"<br />https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_humanity_s_stairway_to_self_transcendence/transcript?language=en jhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70478193735240518102016-12-29T19:48:43.680+13:002016-12-29T19:48:43.680+13:00Daniel Copeland
That's a very interesting per...Daniel Copeland<br /><br />That's a very interesting perspective. <br /><br />I'm 70 plus a few months, which means that my first approximately thirty years were spent in a world which took extensive government involvement for granted. And, by and large, it was a much better time to be alive, provided you were mainstream, hetero and white.<br /><br />Not everyone will agree but my own view is that governments were quite good at dealing with the big picture but were less good at coping with individual people's lives. <br /><br />But, at least, in those days, policy guidelines weren't aimed solely at driving down the tax bill. Today, in contrast, we have, to quote a friend of mine, "Stalinist bureaucrats playing at being red-in-tooth-and-claw capitalists". <br /><br />Now the good thing about real red-in-tooth-and-claw-capitalists is that they don't tend to kick you when you're down. There's no percentage in it and it's a waste of good shoe leather. <br /><br />Stalinist bureaucrats are another matter. Their true currency is power rather than money. And so you get the worst of both worlds.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-60656442664248434352016-12-28T16:52:59.113+13:002016-12-28T16:52:59.113+13:00greywarbler:
It is supremely important who is in ...greywarbler:<br /><br />It is supremely important who is in power over people's lives, and what policies they have. That's why we need strategies that win, which in turn is why we need a philosophy that generates strategies that win. I'll be 40 in a little over a year, and I've never seen a world (or a New Zealand) not run by neoliberalism. And I can tell you why the idea of entrusting the economy to the government is not attractive to people my age and younger: it's partly no doubt because we never saw what we're missing, but it's also because of what we <em>have</em> seen governments do, all our lives, with the economic responsibilities they were given to hold. I've been an unemployment beneficiary, and I'll never support a party that cuts benefits -- but I have heartfelt sympathy with the view that government departments can't be trusted with decisions affecting people's lives. I gather it's only gotten worse since I got out.Daniel Copelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05944461326199566111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-6972198848460666122016-12-23T02:12:26.063+13:002016-12-23T02:12:26.063+13:00Daniel Copeland
Conservative Leftism is a label ...Daniel Copeland <br /><br />Conservative Leftism is a label created by Daphne Lawless from Fightback (the refounded and reconstituted Workers Party of New Zealand). At least as far as I'm aware.<br /><br />It seems in my mind to refer to baby boomers who possess these political traits:<br /><br />- a failure to detach themselves from the mentality that the United States-led camp of Imperialism is always in the wrong.<br /><br />-Whomsoever stands against that camp is the enemies'enemy, and therefore at least a temporary friend.<br /><br />- a nostalgia for postwar Keynesianism and a an attitude that all we have to do is go back to that, more or less.<br /><br />- a justifiable abhorrence and bafflement at the ever-mutating algorithms of campus led identity politics.<br /><br />- a lament for the capitulation to the Right in the field of economic matters<br /><br />- a disconnection from the real life struggles of new generations of the working class and middle classes.<br /><br />- a tendency to abandon independent critical thought and substitute it for romanticism and nostalgia.<br /><br />- sometimes con Leftism can refer to reactionary thinking in hippie guise. An obsession with cabals of people controlling things. This means that nothing an expert or an institution says can be trusted. This annoying psychological phenomenon gets to the point where we are actually taking backwards steps in terms of scientific progress and empiricism in any field.<br /><br />We social democrats, as opposed to marxists, try to avoid mechanical thinking.<br /><br />So as much as the marxists will neatly categorise sections of society into political/ideological groupings based on their relationships to the means of production or position within capitalism.... we see that one can be have political traits to a certain degrees. We don't have to be caricatures.manfredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05864320667710466331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45246046581599210342016-12-22T18:13:16.155+13:002016-12-22T18:13:16.155+13:00What a very good defemse of the traditional left y...What a very good defemse of the traditional left you present here, Chris. However, I take issue with one thing. You say that the silence the left has greeted Russia's action in Syria should be compared to the noisy objections to the US's invasion of Iraq. But actually the two can't be compared. Russia has not invaded Syria; the ruling and recognised government invited its assistance. And it's my impression that the left world-wide is viewing Russia's role in Syria through the eyes of what may well turn out to be Al Quaeda's propoganda.<br /><br />But thank-you for the article... RJMCQAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-12678079352741827282016-12-22T12:25:02.438+13:002016-12-22T12:25:02.438+13:00greywarbler
I can't speak for Daniel Copeland...greywarbler<br /><br />I can't speak for Daniel Copeland but I'm not sure he's being as flippant as you suggest.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41514396055808754062016-12-21T13:42:03.239+13:002016-12-21T13:42:03.239+13:00Daniel Copeland
Conservative leftism V Neoliberali...Daniel Copeland<br />Conservative leftism V Neoliberalism. Fight on Now! Bring popcorn, beer, dildos, rotten eggs and over-ripe tomatoes.<br /><br />Are we discussing some pastime of a sporting match or the important matter of who is in power over people's lives. Try and differentiate this in your mind will you. The people whose standard of living and opportunities for a satisfying human life are diminishing every year would appreciate it.greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-56026608582013349412016-12-21T10:00:57.803+13:002016-12-21T10:00:57.803+13:00I think for Conservative Leftism to beat free ma...I think for Conservative Leftism to beat free market libertarianism cannot be achieved through moving further to the left, but closer to the Centre - and the most effective way would be to take up the leadership of the Centre, <br /><br />From there then the competition will not be so much between the sectional interests of the Left and Right - but between the most agreeable policies<br />UPWARDS for all like with a rising tide, in a more fair and effective way than what has been happening so far.Jens Mederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10371374720779147859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-69559937189543541262016-12-21T07:40:08.294+13:002016-12-21T07:40:08.294+13:00Victor
Sorry to have prompted you to engage...Victor<br /><br /> Sorry to have prompted you to engage so heartily in a pursuit from which you can derive no pleasure.<br />Cheers DavidDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-88234224385482356692016-12-20T18:10:25.926+13:002016-12-20T18:10:25.926+13:00Conservative leftism has, however, failed one rath...Conservative leftism has, however, failed one rather critical test. It got beaten by neoliberalism. And in thirty years it hasn't beaten neoliberalism. Any new leftward movement has to have a plan better than "Let's put things back the way they were right before we lost."Daniel Copelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05944461326199566111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-49681839225435457432016-12-20T17:19:40.814+13:002016-12-20T17:19:40.814+13:00David
Sorry to be personal but I doubt whether a ...David<br /><br />Sorry to be personal but I doubt whether a majority shares your naivety.<br /><br />I suspect there will have been Russian and Iranian agents there as well, although, like the Israelis, they'd have had to keep their identities firmly under wraps. <br /><br />Welcome to the looking glass world of espionage and special ops.<br /><br />Of course, that's assuming these guys really exist and are really "agents" rather than mercenaries or something similar.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-57913365305079191732016-12-20T12:25:45.890+13:002016-12-20T12:25:45.890+13:00Well said Victor. Capitalism has indeed played a p...Well said Victor. Capitalism has indeed played a part in alleviating poverty. But anyone who believes it was unregulated capitalism is a fool. The Asian Tigers for instance develop their economies using strict government intervention and control. And the development has come at a price, whether you think it's worth it or not. The price has been environmental degradation, growing inequality, and the oppression of minorities, and in the West – the growth of relative poverty. Lack of choices, lack of opportunity. Enough said – this is complicated.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-23845083183810226442016-12-20T10:55:10.225+13:002016-12-20T10:55:10.225+13:00Victor
If you don't think it is signific...Victor<br /><br /> If you don't think it is significant that these agents have been embedded with al nusra and fighting with them rather than against them as has been U S stated policy, I think you will be in a minority.<br />Cheers D J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46149189577144160832016-12-19T21:03:40.353+13:002016-12-19T21:03:40.353+13:00As Conservative Leftism includes personal capital...As Conservative Leftism includes personal capitalism as an essential tradition of it, it is clearly also a factor in the success of free market neo-liberalism - but by insisting on direct universal participation in capitalism , Democratic Socialism or Conservative Leftism can surpass what neo-liberalism can and has achieved - by eliminating the inevitable social polarization of capitalism into haves and have nots under free market neo-liberalism.<br /><br />The superior performance of Conservative Leftism was demonstrated even in the state capitalist Soviet Union, when the humble peasantry of collective farms with the meager capital (e.g. 1 cow) they were allowed to feed themselves and even earn extra to what the state or the collective was able to grant them - <br /><br />and actually contributed through the permitted public and illegal black markets enough to their collective living standard for the people to lose confidence in Socialism.<br /><br />Through regulated universal individual participation in wealth and productive capital ownership, Left and Right meet and unite at the Centre.<br /><br />Jens Mederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10371374720779147859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18263180375163639282016-12-19T18:49:37.080+13:002016-12-19T18:49:37.080+13:00Actually, Charles, the countries where millions ha...Actually, Charles, the countries where millions have been lifted out of poverty have all had very active state sectors.<br /><br />Some are dictatorships and some nascent social democracies. And some have been a mixture of both. But I can't think of a single one which has been ruled by neo-liberals. <br /><br />I agree, of course, that capitalism has played a major role in this transformation. But it's been capitalism as guided, regulated and enabled by the state.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-44736381094629179262016-12-19T18:38:58.450+13:002016-12-19T18:38:58.450+13:00David Stone
I take no pleasure in "ridiculin...David Stone<br /><br />I take no pleasure in "ridiculing" the questionable sources that you insist on parading before us, as if they contain a Holy Grail of ultimate truth hidden from us by the nefarious MSM. <br /><br />Frankly, I'm more than a little bored by it. <br /><br />In this case, you've chosen a website founded by someone who thinks (or at least thought) that 9/11 was a "False Flag" operation, which is probably hokum but not as palpably so as time travel.<br /><br />But, assuming it's true, what does this latest story prove? Whoever thought that there weren't US, Saudi, Jordanian, Israeli etc operatives active in Syria? That's the small change of special ops that every country of any significance gets involved in wherever there's a trouble spot. So what? <br /><br />Mind you, having Moroccans involved was a nice touch.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-40602373513579288402016-12-19T18:03:40.609+13:002016-12-19T18:03:40.609+13:00Chris
We've already argued on several occasio...Chris<br /><br />We've already argued on several occasions about the Syrian imbroglio.<br /><br />My position remains that there's nothing inherently desirable about a total victory for the Russo-Shi'ite alliance vis a vis a partial victory for the Sunni insurgents. <br /><br />Both prospects are extremely unpleasant and neither prospect would facilitate peace in the wider region.<br /><br />It also remains my position that pounding Aleppo to hell won't mean the end of the conflict. So the utilitarian justification for the pounding remains distinctly questionable. <br /><br />But even if these were not my views, I would take issue with your belief that circumstances such as Syria's justify just about any degree of brutality on the part of the side you champion.<br /><br />And so I ask you exactly what I ask friends and family in Israel, whenever the IDF storms into Gaza in disproportionate response to a sudden spike in terrorism, perpetrated, as often as not, by militants embedded in civilian populations, viz: "Just tell me what you're NOT entitled to do? What are the limits? There, surely must be some!" <br /><br />Finally, the notion that we can dispense with the laws of war serves New Zealand particularly badly. Flout one part of Public International Law and you weaken the entire corpus. But where is a tiny, independent country such as ours to look for its ultimate safety if not to the law?Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50616318653323371552016-12-19T16:57:28.177+13:002016-12-19T16:57:28.177+13:00Your point about first being entirely democratic i...Your point about first being entirely democratic is the key one, and so from my conservative right point of view your type of leftism is the only one I regard as legitimate. Everyone to your left tries to undermine democracy, and always complains about democracy when they once again lose an election.<br /><br />But your final point is ludicrous, unless you say or 'admit' that regulated capitalism is an essential element of the conservative leftist system. However you fail to mention it at all. You say:<br />'....it has freed and fed more people than any other grand narrative in human history,.....' <br />Come off it. Capitalism is what did that. About 3 billion people lifted out of absolute poverty in the last 30 years by globalised free trade being ‘exploited’ by global capital. The conservative left mostly supported free trade so may make a claim to have contributed along with the centre right to it, but it was free market capitalism that did all the work essentially. And who were and still are the most avid proponents of that? Neo-liberals. Congratulations neo-liberalism, your invisible hand is now claimed to be holding the torches of the centre left & right. Now that is success!<br />Charles Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86625201195777015032016-12-19T16:00:01.687+13:002016-12-19T16:00:01.687+13:00Congratulations Chris, for raising thoughts on Con...Congratulations Chris, for raising thoughts on Conservative Leftism, i.e. only moderately, not extremely (revolutionary) innovative Leftism, in association with the concept of Democratic Socialism, which obviously is somewhat different from our current Social Democracy because:<br /><br />Since Socialism is defined as "social (govt.) ownership of the means of production" which in practice is bureaucratic (totalitarian?) govt. monopoly capitalism, then is that not clearly converted into democratic socialism through all citizens participating also in direct economic power ownership through at least a minimally meaningful level of individual capital ownership ?<br /><br />In other words, are not all the conditions of egalitarian fairness and FULL DEMOCRACY with at least a measurable share of individual economic power and responsibility beside just a vote only - under the concepts of conservative leftism and democratic socialism -<br /><br />perfectly fulfilled also by the "Ownership Democracy" or "People's Capitalism" concepts - at the easily recognizable absolute Centre on the traditional political spectrum based on the wealth ownership pattern ?Jens Mederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10371374720779147859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-8857381199370179332016-12-19T15:36:18.905+13:002016-12-19T15:36:18.905+13:00"it has freed and fed more people" and I..."it has freed and fed more people" and I may add given social health care to countless millions of people.<br /><br />A great article, well done.Pollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-18298350503394404302016-12-19T11:55:46.175+13:002016-12-19T11:55:46.175+13:00Fine sentiments, Victor, but how would you apply t...Fine sentiments, Victor, but how would you apply them in Aleppo?<br /><br />If the people you are fighting are happy to use civilians both as human shields and propaganda tools (in which crime the western media has proved an eager accomplice) what alternative is there? Constantly resupplied by the Saudis and their Sunni allies, the Jihadis in East Aleppo have demonstrated repeatedly that, rather than surrender, they are prepared to extend the suffering of the civilian population more or less indefinitely.<br /><br />The Syrian Government and their Russian and Iranian allies are doing nothing that the Allies of World War II (and the Americans in Korea and Vietnam) didn't teach them to do - and for the same reason - to bring the war to a speedy end. <br /><br />Just read the latest reports emerging from the battle zone - of Jihadis burning the busses in which Shiite civilians were about to escape the fighting. Against such reckless hate, Victor, your fine sentiments count for nothing.<br /><br />Morals are cheap, Comrade, when you don't have to pay the price of enforcing them.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-89825111684698655622016-12-19T11:30:32.766+13:002016-12-19T11:30:32.766+13:00God rest ye merry gentlemen (and women) over Chris...God rest ye merry gentlemen (and women) over Christmas so you can recharge your batteries and march like little toy soldiers in the worthy battle that Chris has described in his thinkpiece. <br /><br />Sitting and talking with a generosity of spirit to achieve an end that is best for all and being willing to consider and give instead of demand to preset targets, would be a good change from the present. We have to get rid of the neolib approach of treating humanity as plastic refuse governed by base instincts, and its downplaying all our good qualities so the received view leaves us tarnished by the limited, avaricious minds of the cream of the psychopaths that have inveigled their way to the top.<br /><br />May there be a long enough break in fighting to play a symbolic game of football, just to remind us of what humans really like doing when they get the chance. And while the game proceeds, may there be time for the civilians to leave, a civil gap for humans to care for the afflicted by war and a place where they can stay in safety, unbombed by heartless war controllers, or unskilled or uncaring killing contractors with various sorts of destructive machinery. My own father was a bomber pilot in WW2 and only one of his crew escaped their flaming plane. Ordinary people caught up in extraordinary events should be a rare occurrence. <br /><br />It is time that military spending was wound down to minimal, the height of it is a wound on the world, and a juggernaut that will roll over live bodies for a 'greater' goal. Keep in mind the individual when hearing of the overview. Perhaps Rachel's story is the best to review.<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie<br /><br />https://electronicintifada.net/content/photostory-israeli-bulldozer-driver-murders-american-peace-activist/4449<br /><br />https://www.theguardian.com/world/rachel-corriegreywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77217218296799219822016-12-19T11:15:20.439+13:002016-12-19T11:15:20.439+13:00Is it just me, or are there ONLY two sentences in ...Is it just me, or are there ONLY two sentences in the seventh paragraph. And both seem fairly clear to me. Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41521869945246325332016-12-19T08:20:28.792+13:002016-12-19T08:20:28.792+13:00Wonderful column Chris. Years back I agreed with t...Wonderful column Chris. Years back I agreed with the goals of revolutionary socialism but could never quite reconcile the methodology. That being compulsion where persuasion fails.<br /><br />I have got into conflict on the blogs when being told how to think, labelled when I resisted. More often than not I have been in agreement but resistant to coercion and compulsion. So when a progressive liberal uses "must" and "can't" you are placed in a binary position of being forced to accept or disagree. And this use of verbal and doctrinal force leads only to real force. The progressive liberals quickly morph to lliberal doctrinaire authoritarians. Next step the gulag metaphorical or real.<br /><br />So thank you Chris for flying the flag of the conservative Left. I'm pleased to be associated.Nick Jnoreply@blogger.com