tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post6097683904966611456..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: The Power of No: The Greeks Expose Neoliberalism's Anti-Democratic Agenda.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-41787016236617682232015-07-16T12:01:13.240+12:002015-07-16T12:01:13.240+12:00Good points
the enigma of why banks were pouring m...Good points<br />the enigma of why banks were pouring money into Greece and collaborating with a clientelist state while knowing very well how things stood – Greece would never have got so heavily indebted without the connivance of the western establishment Greg 22.10 7/7<br /><br /> Tourism is only part of the Greek economy, they had a vibrant manufacturing sector as well which has been all but destroyed. They made high quality furniture and fittings, Wine production and lately Organic Farming amongst other things. Davo s 6.58 8/7<br /><br />Sounds a bit like us doesn't it?greywarblernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15631217002100579762015-07-10T10:23:16.101+12:002015-07-10T10:23:16.101+12:00@ Victor 19.30;
I get your point and I agree in t...@ Victor 19.30;<br /><br />I get your point and I agree in the most part. There is too much blaming going on and not enough common sense negotiations.<br /><br />The Euro was deliberately set up to take the money out of the hands of the pollies and keep it in the hands of bright, brainy "Experts". Works alright when things are going well but collapses when things are going down the gurgler, especially when they were the very people who caused the gurgler to open up!<br /><br />The Euro will survive but not in it's present form and it will be a leaner, meaner form of currency.<br /><br />Richard: ~"when were purely voluntary contributions ever tried as a revenue source for the gummint?~" They didn't because they were aware that voluntary contributions to charity were not meeting the needs of the people it was supposed to help and the Govt. had to step in.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-37091324001164640292015-07-10T08:37:26.646+12:002015-07-10T08:37:26.646+12:00Probably never Richard, but governments in the pas...Probably never Richard, but governments in the past have relied on voluntary contributions for charity and found that they were insufficient. In fact several studies have shown that the rich don't actually give a great deal to charity, so I doubt if they'd give a great deal for taxation either. In fact "IRS data suggests that, globally, U.S. nonfinancial companies hold at least three times more cash and other liquid assets than the Federal Reserve reports, idle money...." So they tend to squirrel money away. Can you honestly see them giving it to the government to help fund stuff? Try giving me a statement rather than a question. And please try not to quote Ayn Rand, she's been thoroughly debunked. As Greenspan said, selfishness actually destroys society :-).Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-17000862039462566142015-07-09T23:59:18.497+12:002015-07-09T23:59:18.497+12:00GS: when were purely voluntary contributions ever ...GS: when were purely voluntary contributions ever tried as a revenue source for the gummint?Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-206159605330827872015-07-09T23:54:28.778+12:002015-07-09T23:54:28.778+12:00GS said: 'Richard I can't understand your ...GS said: 'Richard I can't understand your point about taxation being collected with "implied threats of violence."'<br /><br />Ever tried not paying what the gummint say you owe them in tax? Your bank account will be frozen, or people will come knocking at your door. With guns, if you show signs of principled resistance. Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-3341776499301726312015-07-09T20:05:15.159+12:002015-07-09T20:05:15.159+12:00Flat Tax as in GST/VAT GS. The US Tax system is a ...Flat Tax as in GST/VAT GS. The US Tax system is a nightmare to wade through. State Taxes, Federal Taxes, Social Security taxes, Payroll taxes, the list goes on.<br /><br />I hear that Simon Bridges has a few ex-Northland bridges for sale mate!Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25148209646349176732015-07-09T19:30:06.295+12:002015-07-09T19:30:06.295+12:00Davo
My point is that the Euro was essentially a ...Davo<br /><br />My point is that the Euro was essentially a product of idealism concerning closer European integration, something subscribed to by both left and right in some continental countries.<br /><br />The people who championed the Euro also, by and large, championed strengthening the European Social Charter, which they likewise tended to see as a huge step on the road to Federalism. <br /><br />It could well be that the idea of a common currency was originally thought up by neo-liberal economists. But I'm not sure that's why it was adopted. <br /><br />And, as mentioned earlier, the then CDU-led German government primarily accepted the Euro as a trade-off for unification.<br /><br />I would, however, agree that the Euro was a mistake and an obvious one at that.<br /><br />Meanwhile, I also agree with you that Greece, Germany and several other countries and institutions share the blame for the current impasse.<br /><br />But what get's me about this issue and how it's being debated, is all the effort that goes into finger-pointing and moralising when it's solutions that matter.....not who caused the sickness but how to cure it, with the least harm to the people of Greece, to the EU's institutions and to the spirit of peace and reconciliation on which that largely (if not wholly) benificent Union was built!<br /><br />Where's the pragmatism and common sense of 1953? Is it only in the aftermath of a horrendous war that people can behave sensibly? If so, what future can there be for our species?Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-43432116150469813442015-07-09T18:36:48.972+12:002015-07-09T18:36:48.972+12:00A flat tax might make sense if allied with Univers...A flat tax might make sense if allied with Universal Basic Income, which works on the same principle of cutting back on administrative costs through universality.<br /><br />Any takers to my right? <br /><br />No, I didn't think so.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-84434022856787446312015-07-09T13:22:37.318+12:002015-07-09T13:22:37.318+12:00It depends what you mean by a flat tax of course, ...It depends what you mean by a flat tax of course, but the evidence on flat taxes is not particularly conclusive. I suspect most American proponents are contrasting it with their own tax system which from what I can gather is labyrinthine, and expensive. According to at least one source although the administrative costs of a flat tax are less, "the equity, efficiency, and yield considerations remain suspect." And of course many countries with flat taxes – like Russia which apparently has an effective flat tax rate of 13%, also have fairly high sales taxes – in Russia's case 20%. There goes your equity right out the window for a start. Richard I can't understand your point about taxation being collected with "implied threats of violence." A suggesting we rely on voluntary contributions? If so I have a bridge....... oh fuck it – I'm running out of bridges.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25792352780798123032015-07-09T13:07:59.288+12:002015-07-09T13:07:59.288+12:00Firstly Richard it's not what the ECB did that...Firstly Richard it's not what the ECB did that is the issue, it's the timing. When Syriza called the referendum The ECB cut off the trickle funding in the hope of imfluencing the vote. THAT IS POLITICAL!<br /><br />Yes, Greece needs to crack down on the tax evaders and that is what Syriza wants to do. The Troika want to lumber the debts onto the poorest Greeks not allow Syriza to collect the taxes that are due, I wonder why that is? Why is Christine Legarde and to a lesser extent Hollande (both French) so anti that course? What's in it for them? <br /><br />As I have said so many times; when a lender lends money knowing the the borrower can't pay it back, are they not at fault too? Yet we always blame the borrower.<br /><br />This rightwing ideology of increasing Flat Taxes doesn't help, it tends to flatten the economy. There is nothing fair about a Flat Tax and there never was, it's designed to shift money upward, Progressive Tax is a fairer system but needs to be well regulated. Something that Greece failed at.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54571064412357918612015-07-09T12:39:08.935+12:002015-07-09T12:39:08.935+12:00Europe has some distinct issues that other combina...Europe has some distinct issues that other combination of countries don't have. What was envisioned in Europe was a European version of the US. Where all the states would work together to a common goal. But Europe is be-set with underlying animosities that have not been fully put to rest. These go back centuries.<br /><br />The Euro as it was set up was a mistake because each country was and is able to set it's own agendas as far as taxation and fiscal controls were applied. This has created a series of issues that split the states apart not bringing them together. Simply put: One currency -- one set of rules!<br /><br />Yes Victor I am aware of Jacques Delor and his sometimes fiery debates with Mad Mags! <br /><br />I agree, Greece was in the wrong for it's mis-management of it's financial affairs but so is Germany as the primary lender who knew that Greece was getting into dire straits but stll kept on lending money to it. Both are equally culpable. So both have to bite the bullet so to speak.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70570794709570218672015-07-09T11:59:47.889+12:002015-07-09T11:59:47.889+12:00"The vicious and ugly attacks on Syriza from ..."The vicious and ugly attacks on Syriza from the local right excoriate Greece's high levels of tax evasion. Those very same rightwingers are happy to boast on Kiwiblog of how little tax they themselves pay, and say that it is a libertarian's duty to pay as little as possible."<br /><br />When the Greek government is perceived as being corrupt by the vast majority of its own people, it's hardly surprising that the citizenry will wish to withhold contributions from it. Likewise while there is a progressive tax system where high earners are punished disproportionately for their success, there will be resentment. Reform of the Greek system of taxation with introduction of a low flat rate of income and corporate tax (forgetting for a moment that taxation is collected using implied threats of violence) would probably result in increasing revenue for the government. But firstly the whole corrupt system of government in Greece must be eviscerated and the worst of the thieves, bribe-takers and embezzlers put on trial, and if found guilty they should have their assets seized and be thrown in jail.Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-42037403829662845202015-07-09T11:49:58.912+12:002015-07-09T11:49:58.912+12:00Davo: "@Richard; When Tsipras called the refe...Davo: "@Richard; When Tsipras called the referendum the ECB immediately stopped the drip-feed liquidity funding to the Greek banks. Does that not smack of political interference to you?"<br /><br />Davo - maintaining OR stopping the flow of other people's money into Greek banks by the ECB is political interference. The ECB should cease this interference, and allow private sources to be the sole funders of any Greek recovery. The respective governments should get out of the way.Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-55131137247331158052015-07-09T10:58:38.032+12:002015-07-09T10:58:38.032+12:00A comment above was that "the right know and ...A comment above was that "the right know and understand that the market i.e. the people are always correct". Interesting remark.<br /><br />Instead, Greece has highlighted the fractures between the benign market euphemisms that have been core to the neoliberal discourse, and the evidenced reality that its power brokers are promoting something entirely different. The people of Greece, through democracy, overwhelmingly rejected more neoliberalism. The "will of the people" and "will of the markets" have clearly been completely opposed in Greece and yet, some people can still suggest that markets and democracy are the same, oblivious to reason and common sense. <br /><br />If a million unemployed people arrived at a market and had to vie for goods against a single millionaire, the millionaire will get what they want every time. Markets always take direction from those holding cash... there is nothing democratic about that at all. <br /><br />Also laid bare has been any suggestion that neoliberalism can aid an ailing economy. For years the nation has been under a ruthless neoliberal prescription which has left the economy and social fabric of the nation shredded. With 60% youth unemployment and staggering suicide levels attributed to lack of government support for those in need. Only Iraq has been subjected to the savage level of neoliberal "reforms" currently advocated for Greece. <br /><br />The disclosure that the economists of the IMF secretly acknowledged that the compounding debt burden is impossible for Greece to ever pay off, display that the motivations behind negotiations were never about fixing the economy of Greece. <br />The insistence of a savage Scorched Earth approach to the state while claiming the wealth and resources of the nation (for now and the future) by foreign interests is purely a struggle of power and dominance. This isn't about repaying debt - this is about the local mafia shooting the livestock and burning down the barn while calmly saying how generous and patient they’ve been in claiming what’s theirs.Lozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12064567381918975446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46755422154031671922015-07-08T23:14:15.338+12:002015-07-08T23:14:15.338+12:00Davo
I'm not sure Jacques Delors would agree ...Davo<br /><br />I'm not sure Jacques Delors would agree with your explanation.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-44521293317777964182015-07-08T16:05:08.225+12:002015-07-08T16:05:08.225+12:00Nice summary Davo, but I'm afraid it's was...Nice summary Davo, but I'm afraid it's wasted on them. No matter how many economists say it's wrong, no matter how much evidence you provide, their 'religious' beliefs will override it all. It was amazes me though that they have no thought for the consequences. Maybe because the wealthy are insulated from them. You never hear them mention malnourished kids, all the diseases that spring from poverty. I guess it helps to think that the poor are responsible for their own condition. As Steptoe senior once said "Depression? I made a fortune then – selling everything they were."Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-37015455505145666882015-07-08T14:46:01.954+12:002015-07-08T14:46:01.954+12:00The father of the Euro was Professor Robert Mundel...The father of the Euro was Professor Robert Mundell. It’s important to mention the other little bastard spawned by the late Prof. Mundell: “supply-side” economics, otherwise known as “Reaganomics,” “Thatcherism” – or, simply “voodoo” economics.<br /><br />The imposition of the euro had one true goal: To end the European welfare state.<br />Here’s how it works. To join the Eurozone, nations must agree to keep their deficits to no more than 3% of GDP and total debt to no more than 60% of GDP. In a recession, that’s plain insane. By contrast, President Obama pulled the USA out of recession by increasing deficit spending to a staggering 9.8% of GDP, and he raised the nation’s debt to 101% from a pre-recession 62%. Republicans screamed, but it worked. The US has lower unemployment than any Eurozone nation.<br /><br />As Obama scolded the European tormentors of Greece: “You cannot keep on squeezing countries that are in the midst of depression.” Cutting spending power only leads to less spending which leads to further cuts in spending power – a death spiral we see today in the Eurozone from Greece to Italy to Spain—but not in Germany.<br /><br />“Not in Germany.” There’s the rub. Normally, a nation such as Greece can quickly recover from debt-induced recession by devaluing its currency. Greece would become a dirt cheap tourist destination once more and its lower-cost exports would zoom, instantly increasing competitiveness. And that’s what Germany can’t allow. Germany lured other European nations into the euro in order to keep them from undercutting Germany’s prices in export markets.<br />Restricted by the 3% deficit rule, the only recourse left for Eurozone debtors: pay the piper with “austerity” measures.<br /><br />That cutting pensions, privatising and closing industries, slashing wages — in other words, “austerity” — or, to use the latest jargon, “reform” — is not just cruel, it’s plain stupid: it can only push a nation in recession into depression.<br /><br />That’s not just theory. The Troika first imposed their vicious austerity measures on Greece in 2010. Greeks watched their annual salaries plummet to half of a German’s paycheck. Greece’s supposedly generous pensions have been cut eight times during the crisis, while two-thirds of pensioners live below the poverty line. Everything from Greece’s airports to harbours, the national lottery to prime publicly-owned real estate was sold off, while schools and hospitals were shuttered. And, for the first time since World War II, widespread starvation had returned. 500,000 children in Greece are said to be malnourished. Students fainting from hunger in frigid schools which cannot afford heating oil is now a common phenomenon.<br /><br />This cruel “belt tightening,” the Troika promised, would restore Greece’s economy by 2012 (and then 2013, 2014, and 2015). In reality, unemployment went from a terrible 12.5% in 2010 to a horrendous 25.6% today.<br /><br />Now, the Troika demands more of the same, a continuation of this disastrous policy.<br />Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-58411799733738257912015-07-08T14:01:18.879+12:002015-07-08T14:01:18.879+12:00Another point, Simon, is that the Euro wasn't ...Another point, Simon, is that the Euro wasn't invented for left-wing purposes but to further integrate the EU.<br /><br />Euro-nationalism, like all nationalisms, is inherently neither right nor left. It just is!<br /><br />Moreover, having a currency union without a fiscal(and hence political)union is almost always a bad idea whether viewed from right or left. <br /><br />Thatcher's fellow conservative, Helmut Kohl, went along with the Euro only because it was the price France was demanding for sanctioning German unification.<br /><br />In contrast, Maggie, rightly on this occasion, saw it as an occasion to don her Boadicea robes.<br /><br />BTW I can't imagine a Labour government in London ultimately signing up for the Euro either. Britain isn't Germany just as Germany isn't France.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-35302631902900517352015-07-08T13:07:17.484+12:002015-07-08T13:07:17.484+12:00Simon
".....those on the right know and unde...Simon<br /><br />".....those on the right know and understand that the market ie the people are always correct."<br /><br />So were the Greeks, whom I hope you acknowledge as people, right to tap into the relatively cheap credit the Euro made available to them?Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-74207210571783951602015-07-08T12:08:48.790+12:002015-07-08T12:08:48.790+12:00The problem is, how do you tax money that is hidde...The problem is, how do you tax money that is hidden in foreign banks? Perhaps people who have non-taxable foreign accounts could be put in jail until they allow the government to assess their accounts for taxation? :-)<br />Simon, if you think the market is the people I have a bridge I'd love to sell you. I suspect even the hardest core of right wing commenters on this site don't really believe that.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-47588572547080447432015-07-08T10:49:19.068+12:002015-07-08T10:49:19.068+12:00The vicious and ugly attacks on Syriza from the lo...The vicious and ugly attacks on Syriza from the local right excoriate Greece's high levels of tax evasion. Those very same rightwingers are happy to boast on Kiwiblog of how little tax they themselves pay, and say that it is a libertarian's duty to pay as little as possible. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50410568385711518642015-07-08T10:45:38.563+12:002015-07-08T10:45:38.563+12:00There is a bear in the corner In a further signal ...There is a bear in the corner <i>In a further signal that Greece’s financial woes could spark a wider geo-political crisis for the West, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras yesterday held talks by phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Moscow said the call had been arranged ‘at the request’ of Mr Tsipras, with the two men discussing the outcome of the referendum. Some observers believe Moscow could agree to bail out Greece in return for Athens blocking further EU sanctions against Russia.</i> from The Daily Mail UK.<br /><br />Theres a bigger picture that the press and the EEC are too frightened to acknowledge.Nick Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-86912751065319626472015-07-08T08:07:58.326+12:002015-07-08T08:07:58.326+12:00"We had arguments which might persuade both t..."We had arguments which might persuade both the Germans – who would be worried about the weakening of anti-inflation policies – and the poorer countries – who must be told that they would not be bailed out of the consequences of a single currency, which would therefore devastate their inefficient economics." (“The Downing Street Years” 1993)<br /><br />Thought you lot would appreciate (now in 2015) this from Margaret Thatcher. <br /><br />The left are increasingly reactionary whereas those on the right know and understand that the market ie the people are always correct.Simonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-71948353860307795352015-07-08T07:22:03.048+12:002015-07-08T07:22:03.048+12:00I seem to remember the national government promisi...I seem to remember the national government promising no new taxes. Politicians break their promises all the time these days. Shamelessly. No matter what party they belong to.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-42313250803906836502015-07-08T06:58:55.455+12:002015-07-08T06:58:55.455+12:00Incidentally, the popular conception that Greece i...Incidentally, the popular conception that Greece is sun, sea, and sand Tourism in only party true. Tourism is only part of the Greek economy, they had a vibrant manufacturing sector as well which has been all but destroyed. They made high quality furniture and fittings, Wine production and lately Organic Farming amongst other things.<br /><br />The previous Govt of Samaras could have hit the tax evaders too but didn't. Time will tell whether Tsipras can and will clamp down on them. It's interesting to note that Christine Legarde of the IMF is against that crack-down. I wonder why that is?Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.com