tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post6659178861372116991..comments2024-03-29T14:26:19.827+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: The Banner Of Us AllChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-88354615696540572662014-02-23T13:20:40.717+13:002014-02-23T13:20:40.717+13:00Clearly we have not yet seen a flag design we can ...Clearly we have not yet seen a flag design we can agee on so forget it until we do. It cannot be political so that rules out race based designs. Nature based ones are probably the only starters.carbonguiltynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-17468589208311838852014-02-16T13:52:45.248+13:002014-02-16T13:52:45.248+13:00Well said Alan!Well said Alan!Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-3554241069722601202014-02-15T13:47:30.711+13:002014-02-15T13:47:30.711+13:00You don't need the Treaty to claim for usurpat...You don't need the Treaty to claim for usurpation of intellectual property/trademark. Just lots of cash. The fact that you made this a spurious Treaty issue shows where the racism liesGuerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-21325541254782787672014-02-15T12:08:49.245+13:002014-02-15T12:08:49.245+13:00A flag is a rag of identity. It gains mana with hi...A flag is a rag of identity. It gains mana with history. Its symbols as well as colours matter.<br /><br />But it needs to be the flag for all.<br /><br />The tino rangatiratanga flag is a beautiful flag but fails the test. It is now sadly too closely associated with a noisy racist minority of Treaty misinterpreters<br /><br />Alan Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158473327999595285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-35702112376597759572014-02-15T11:35:30.066+13:002014-02-15T11:35:30.066+13:00The Tino Rangatiratanga flag is a striking design ...The Tino Rangatiratanga flag is a striking design and visually I like it. But Chris does not address the elephant in the room which is that that flag already has a meaning and a purpose. It stands, self evidently, as the symbol of "tino rangiatiratanga" ie the idea that Maori did not cede sovereignty to the British Crown, and therefore to the NZ Government as it's successor. So unless New Zealanders accept that proposition ie that the current NZ government is illegally usurping the sovereignty of Maori - how can they pledge allege nice to the symbol of that proposition? And if the government does take that symbol over without conceding its ilegimacy, does not that mean those who support Tino rangatiratanga will then need to find a new flag? (They may have a Treaty claim for expropriation of their intellectual property in the existing flag, unless they have agreed to the take over. )<br /><br />Chris - care to comment? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45877003952522169432014-02-14T13:42:28.770+13:002014-02-14T13:42:28.770+13:00I think our present flag is a good one. I say just...I think our present flag is a good one. I say just keep it.Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-21054221374929004472014-02-14T13:02:41.572+13:002014-02-14T13:02:41.572+13:00Guerilla Surgeon
I appreciate your scepticism.
B...Guerilla Surgeon<br /><br />I appreciate your scepticism.<br /><br />But there is one thing that unites just about everyone in this country and that's appreciation of the beauty of our natural environment.<br /><br />It unites rich and poor, young and old, right and left, Maori and Pakeha, NZ born and recent immigrant, sporty and couch potato, religious and secular.<br /><br />So why not a flag which celebrates this environment?<br /><br />Moreover, if the first virtue of a flag is to provide a symbol for a country's citizens, an important secondary virtue is to represent it to foreigners, ideally in economically advantageous ways (e.g. encouraging tourism and selling produce). <br /><br />An emphasis on our natural environment does precisely this.<br /><br />I found the following suggestion on the web and think it heads broadly in the right direction, although there's room for developement: <br /><br />http://taucetione.com/?pg=178<br /><br />I agree that those who don't concern themselves with this topic are probably more sensible than those who do. Put my obsessiveness down to my inherent triviality.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13682303717402079572014-02-14T12:32:44.346+13:002014-02-14T12:32:44.346+13:00Jan
Of course not all symbolism is Pagan. If it ...Jan<br /><br />Of course not all symbolism is Pagan. If it was, all flags would be Pagan and this discussion would be meaningless. <br /><br />By 'Pagan', I mean a traditional or traditionally-based cosmology that is neither scientific nor monotheistic.<br /><br />I have no specific objection to Paganism. But that's because I'm a reasonably tolerant individual and am happy for people to choose whatever cosmology they prefer, just so long as it doesn't lead them to want to blow me up.<br /><br />But, obviously, I really couldn't feel a sense of loyalty to a flag that's intended to represent a cosmology that is not mine. <br /><br />And, yes, I'm aware of the history of the Swastika. But, obviously, any use of this symbol in a new flag would need to take account of its most recent history. I can't imagine that you would urge its use in our putative new national flag. <br /><br />I also, of course, accept that reproducing the Nazi banner was the last thing in the mind of you and your colleagues when you came up with the tino rangatiratanga flag.<br /><br />But I have to tell you that my first sighting of it made my Central European blood run cold. I actually thought it was the sort of flag that Neo-Nazi organisations use in countries where the Swastika is banned. <br /><br />Subjective?: Yes<br /><br />But, as you point out, "a symbol is just something that has been imbued with meaning by the creator(s) which can be invested with many shades of meaning depending on your own convictions".<br /><br />So let's find a flag which (the inevitable aesthetic disagreements apart) is unlikely to be invested with negative emotions, either here in New Zealand or when flown overseas. And, if we can't do that, then let's stay with what we have.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-16594098159649600402014-02-14T07:34:37.335+13:002014-02-14T07:34:37.335+13:00"We need a much more inclusive design that wi..."We need a much more inclusive design that will draw on the loyalties of all our citizens without asking any of them to subscribe to a cosmology that is not theirs and that they might well find offends their own beliefs."<br /><br />Good luck with that :-). Those who give a ship seem to give a wholehearted shit about this sort of thing. The union jack of course offends the Irish, racists and Blimps don't like the Tino Rangatira flag, atheists don't like crosses. The vast majority of the population I suspect doesn't give a shit. Which is very sensible.<br />Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-74449780982322305042014-02-14T03:00:40.109+13:002014-02-14T03:00:40.109+13:00Victor and Wayne Mapp are spot on when it comes to...Victor and Wayne Mapp are spot on when it comes to the Kyle Lockwood design. If we're going to move to a new flag then for godsakes let's not end up in some ludicrous half-way house where we can't quite bring ourselves to entirely get rid of the old one. <br /><br />Put your hand over the southern cross and Lockwood's design looks half decent (though perhaps just slightly over the top). Take your hand away and it's little more than a dog's dinner. <br /><br />The Canadians had the courage to go for something entirely new and bold, with the central motif right bang in the middle. Let's show the same backbone.<br /><br /><br />And don't rule out the possibility of new bold, simple, stunning designs emerging in the near future. As someone who very nearly took up graphic design as a career back in the 80s, I've got one or two cunning little gems up my sleeve as we speak.markusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-38672867943813704392014-02-13T22:00:56.741+13:002014-02-13T22:00:56.741+13:00Oh goodness, Victor, not all symbolism is pagan, w...Oh goodness, Victor, not all symbolism is pagan, whatever that might mean in your terms - a symbol is just something that has been imbued with meaning by the creator(s) which can be invested with many shades of meaning depending on your own convictions. <br />I suggest you do some research on the swastika, for example. It is a very ancient symbol still in wide use in some cultures, and the three-legged version of it is the national emblem of the country of my forefathers; the Isle of Mann. it can be interpreted, just like the symbols of the tino rangatira flag, in whatever way has meaning for you.<br /> Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-79549515490299280612014-02-13T18:23:12.192+13:002014-02-13T18:23:12.192+13:00Jan
Thank you for explaining the symbolism of the...Jan<br /><br />Thank you for explaining the symbolism of the tino rangatiratanga flag.<br /><br />I think, however, that your explanation should rule it out of consideration as a flag for the whole nation. <br /><br />We are a secular country, albeit one that is broadly respectful of the beliefs of religious communities. <br /><br />As a secular nation, we should no more seek to enshrine the 'Pagan' religious imagery of the Tino Rangatiratanga flag than we should the (perhaps inadvertent)Christian iconography of the United Tribes flag.<br /><br />We need a much more inclusive design that will draw on the loyalties of all our citizens without asking any of them to subscribe to a cosmology that is not theirs and that they might well find offends their own beliefs.<br /><br />May I add that the flag is a very successful work of art. It's strident colours and sense of movement and dynamism make it a very effective street banner. <br /><br />But the same was true of the red, white and black Nazi flag, to which it bears a very loose but still troubling resemblance.<br /><br />Do we really want a national flag that resembles, however slightly, that of the truly evil regime that so many thousands of New Zealanders died combatting? I think not.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-32760430510067513152014-02-13T17:14:19.560+13:002014-02-13T17:14:19.560+13:00It's a sad old place, this country, isn't ...It's a sad old place, this country, isn't it - full of people who can't see past their own noses - tragic really, it has so much potentialJannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22334594829328451822014-02-13T14:53:49.247+13:002014-02-13T14:53:49.247+13:00The question of Key raising the subject of the fla...The question of Key raising the subject of the flag now raises a point. It is said that a remit from Labour HQ in Wellington was prepared to be raised at the next Conference on this, as part of the Election Year strategy, but may have been accidentally leaked into the ether and picked up in the Parliamentary stratosphere so Key decided to pre-empt it by releasing the subject now.<br />Paulusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-9886894885161590992014-02-13T14:00:15.790+13:002014-02-13T14:00:15.790+13:00Hello Jan
I'm the Barry who commented on 11 F...Hello Jan<br /><br />I'm the Barry who commented on 11 Feb, not the one who commented at 08.21 today - but I agree with him about protest and separation.<br /><br />I think there is now an ugliness associated with that tino thing.Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70172561107002618002014-02-13T10:52:16.505+13:002014-02-13T10:52:16.505+13:00Re the Tino Rangatiratanga flag-you MUST be joking...Re the Tino Rangatiratanga flag-you MUST be joking! With all the political overtones that carries I doubt that you would even manage 5% public approval. The Kyle Lockwood flag is easily the best.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-40374117771984099952014-02-13T08:21:49.155+13:002014-02-13T08:21:49.155+13:00This is an explanation of the symbolism of the tin...This is an explanation of the symbolism of the tino rangatira flag:<br />"BLACK represents Te Korekore (the realm of potential being). It thus symbolises the long darkness from which the earth emerged, as well as signifying Rangi - the heavens, a male, formless, floating, passive force.<br />RED represents Te Whei Ao (coming into being). It symbolises Papatuanuku, the earth-mother, the sustainer of all living things, and thus both the land and active forces.<br />WHITE represents Te Ao Marama (the realm of being and light). It symbolises the physical world, purity, harmony, enlightenment and balance.<br /> The spiral-like KORU, symbolic of a curling fern frond, represents the unfolding of new life, hope for the future and the process of renewal".<br /> What's racial separation got to do with it, Barry? Do you understand the meaning of biculturalism or multiculturalism, even? They means different cultures living side by side in harmony, not a 'melting pot' society where the smaller cultures get swallowed up by the dominant one Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-80672329222410504382014-02-12T22:02:44.995+13:002014-02-12T22:02:44.995+13:00The Tino flag is a flag of protest and racial sepa...The Tino flag is a flag of protest and racial separation - not interested.Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46855361448783541562014-02-12T15:57:49.131+13:002014-02-12T15:57:49.131+13:00How much of this is another of Johnny's divers...How much of this is another of Johnny's diversion away from our Spooks destroying files?Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2078219572066816362014-02-12T14:43:33.839+13:002014-02-12T14:43:33.839+13:00Black is the color we race under in Rugby and Athe...Black is the color we race under in Rugby and Atheletics. Black was the color Quax, Snell, Lovelock and Walker wore and the allblacks always and it characterised the austere, controlled ruthless way they played. Once Fred Allen became coach and selected Laidlaw and began playing the running game, we were always likely to loose as we did against the Boks in 70 and 76 and Lions in 71 and almost in 77.<br /> Guerilla the scull and crossbones in the flag the Sea Shepherd boats fly, notably the Steve Irwin, currently r & r in Wellington . The Steve Irwin is actually a former Scottish fisheries protection vessel, 'Jura' which is actually the prototype for the RN Island class Mk1 OPVs designed by David Brown as a prototype WW3 corvette. By giving Sea Shepherd safe harbour and protesting about the Japanese coastguard entering our waters to chase them we are is a sense alligning ourselves with China. Flag choices indicate political leanings. Personally I prefer adopting the Canadian model- three vertical slabs- black on the outside, a white centre with a black fern. The other choice would be to adopt the Jack, wholesale with just a white rectangular insert with a black fern in the centre of the corner.<br />It would reflect the reality we've never really been an independent nation and most of the proposed flags with all the color and too many features would just be another indication were becoming third world, or are already in parts.Robert Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-75833841275762378152014-02-12T13:52:24.069+13:002014-02-12T13:52:24.069+13:00Let's not have a picture of a leaf - it's ...Let's not have a picture of a leaf - it's been done! Besides, as the fern thing has become so connected with sport we would be in danger of being seen as believing that that is the only thing of value here.<br />The tino rangatira flag is striking, unique and has wonderful symbolism which can be adopted with pride by all of us. Its values would be something to aspire to.<br />It's a very interesting discussion, actually, because, far more than just a flag, it's about how we perceive ourselves and how we want others to perceive us. The term of this current government and its globalization policies seem to be bringing this to a head. Do we want to 'market' ourselves in a once-over-lightly fashion, as I think would be the case if we adopted the fern, or do we want something that symbolizes depth and meaning in our own unique way? We can be so much more than the superficial spin that is our lot at present.<br />Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-37322867317353386092014-02-12T10:35:04.884+13:002014-02-12T10:35:04.884+13:00Wayne Mapp
The problem with your proposed procedu...Wayne Mapp<br /><br />The problem with your proposed procedure is that some of us might be in favour of a change but still prefer the current flag to the choice of the new ones on offer. How do you square that circle?<br /><br />And why do you want yet another red, white and blue flag, just like the UK, the US, France, the Netherlands, Chile, Cuba, Australia, Russia(admittedly a paler blue), Serbia, Norway, Iceland, Thailand, the Czech Republic, the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg, Costa Rica, Samoa, Panama and the Republic of China (Taiwan) amongst so many others. <br /><br />Canada didn't achieve its distinctive and beautiful flag through such tunnel vision. Instead, it seems to have chosen a unique red, reminiscent of its woodlands in the magnificent North American "fall".<br /><br />We too have been blessed by nature and should find some way to reflect this in the colours of our flag. <br /><br />And don't kid yourself that a fern leaf is as easily drawable as a maple leaf. Try doing it and you'll see what I mean. Drawability should be a condition of inclusion.Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-81809867938223292262014-02-12T09:32:55.935+13:002014-02-12T09:32:55.935+13:00Changing a national flag is a big deal.
I think i...Changing a national flag is a big deal.<br /><br />I think it would 'take' best as part of some wider political or social reform, about which there is broad consensus. Changing the flag then naturally symbolises societal change.<br /><br />There also seems to be a belief in some quarters that changing the flag will engender new patriotic spirit/pride: that it might actually help catalyze change. (This seems to be part of the NZ Republicans argument?) But that seems to me like the tail wagging the dog.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I think NZ is much too divided at the moment about 'NZ' stands for - and therefore what the flag might symbolise - to make a good decision. Where is the groundswell?Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22815732062601751502014-02-12T09:08:36.824+13:002014-02-12T09:08:36.824+13:00Chris; are you serious?
Or living in la la land...Chris; are you serious? <br /><br /> Or living in la la land?<br /><br />There is NO WAY the majority of New Zealanders will support a flag that represents Maori supremacy and about 3% of the population = those who voted for the Maori and Mana parties.<br /><br />(and for those obsessed about colour, the Nazi flag was red, black and white.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00734191385982326213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45271695765784964722014-02-11T21:48:31.048+13:002014-02-11T21:48:31.048+13:00The red flag was apparently the original flag of n...The red flag was apparently the original flag of no quarter. Pirates would run up the classic black jolly roger flag to signal their intent and give their prey the opportunity to surrender. Otherwise, the red flag went up and things got serious. Or so the story goes.<br /><br /><br />Lord Francis Sausagenoreply@blogger.com