tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post7288520092609626554..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: The Liberal Left: Who Needs You?Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-35808283123562231412009-12-01T14:00:43.422+13:002009-12-01T14:00:43.422+13:00Jeff,
I know quite a lot about schoolteachers- I&...Jeff,<br /><br />I know quite a lot about schoolteachers- I'm married to one, am a child of one and have met hundreds over the years. They are not necessarily liberals. I have known quite a few who vote National. The ones that vote Labour generally do so to even the economic playing field.They put up with the liberal nonsense- but I think you might be surprised how little some of them like it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76076611373825454072009-12-01T10:20:54.093+13:002009-12-01T10:20:54.093+13:00With all respect Chris this article just proves ho...With all respect Chris this article just proves how far out of touch you are with one of the two swing group of voters. "Your lot" as you want to put it with your obbessions with 'class' have and always will vote labour, cause you dont have another choice with the demise of the Alliance. <br /><br />The swing vote are the trades people etc and the liberal group which you so dispise. Yes this speach, which to be blunt was shit (Dimpost sums it up the best) was meant to appeal to this sector. However the other group is the urban liberals, who do not number '5000', rather hundres of thousands. These are the teachers, lawyers, students and other highly educated people who choose to pay more tax because they believe in progressive social policy and more importantly what you term 'liberal issues'. However this group will swing when Labour loses the plot, as it has for the last 4 years.<br /><br />So get a grip.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977211948604358667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-70180827033924705502009-11-30T23:25:37.830+13:002009-11-30T23:25:37.830+13:00To Icehawk et al:
It bears repeating that the Cou...To Icehawk et al:<br /><br />It bears repeating that the Court of Appeal decision affirmed no customary property rights - merely that the Crown's assumed ownership of the F&S was legally unenforceable. <br /><br />So, to make Crown (i.e. public) ownership indisputable required legislation. The beaches were declared to belong to everybody, but at the same time considerable effort and imagination was devoted to devising a way of working Maori customary rights into that collective framework. <br /><br />All-in-all a pretty good effort.<br /><br />Maori nationalism, however, was not about to pass up the opportunity to score a massive propaganda victory. Nor was it silly enough to let the chance to establish a dual polity in New Zealand slip through its fingers.<br /><br />I have to say "Hats off" to the Maori Party for running so far down the paddock with the F&S political football. Nor can one fault them for the sheer audacity of their over-arching political strategy.<br /><br />Doesn't make it right though.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-64979359880227063372009-11-30T22:38:59.818+13:002009-11-30T22:38:59.818+13:00Mr Trotter, a very interesting analysis.
I think ...Mr Trotter, a very interesting analysis.<br /><br />I think the big reality you've missed though is that whatever Mr Goff's personal views are (and it's hard to see what they are, since he does seem very malleable), and however little influence and numbers the liberals might have in general society, they still dominate the Labour Party caucus by a wide margin.<br /><br />I don't think Mr Goff can afford to burn off liberal voters when he's at five percent in the polls.<br /><br />Tim EllisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-65915967121877616802009-11-30T16:04:37.448+13:002009-11-30T16:04:37.448+13:00Hi Chris, There appears to be a logical flaw in y...Hi Chris, There appears to be a logical flaw in your argument. If the numbers of members of the liberal left club in New Zealand is less than 5,000, and very few of them hold positions of power and influence, then how come they (whoever the hell they are) manage to get so many column inches. And why do you bother with them? I always thought of myself as a liberal leftie but the group I belong to is much larger than the one you allude to, and understands the dangers of pointing the finger, especially in a fragile economic environment where blaming 'the other' for all our woes is an attractive option.Lizhttp://www.networkers.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-13385831967321725842009-11-30T15:57:19.830+13:002009-11-30T15:57:19.830+13:00Excellent Chris.
Why is it that is seems that man...Excellent Chris.<br /><br />Why is it that is seems that many left leaning blogs cant have a sensible conversation around the treaty without using the "racist" tag! <br /><br />Some left blogs seem to think we need to be in bed with the Maori Party to get into government.....i dont agree....and wouldnt want to after what appears to be a Super Tory Maori Party where they are favouring the few rich maori and saying bugger you to the rest.Robertonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4807768848919301212009-11-30T14:51:17.276+13:002009-11-30T14:51:17.276+13:00All I'm doing is calling into question an ethi...<i>All I'm doing is calling into question an ethical system that sees nothing untoward in applying one set of rules to one ethnic group, and an entirely different set to another.</i><br />You mean like what Labour did with the Foreshore and Seabed legislation?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28587160057810969222009-11-30T12:50:36.032+13:002009-11-30T12:50:36.032+13:00Chris,
well said. I'm as liberal as they come...Chris,<br /><br />well said. I'm as liberal as they come on many issues (despite arguments with I/S occasionally).<br /><br />But I'm 100% behind Phil's comments. Labour should not be liberal fist, and the party of social democracy second - it must be the other way around. <br /><br />I'm really pleased with Phil's speech and sad (although not surprised) by those who miss the bigger message.<br /><br />I'm glad to see you got it :)James Caygillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26416581202363714232009-11-30T08:17:55.801+13:002009-11-30T08:17:55.801+13:00'What's truly depressing about some of the...'What's truly depressing about some of the participants in this thread is that they don't seem able to recognise a major political shift when they see one.'<br /><br />I've tried to see it but have failed. But don't be depressed - Matthew 13:57 'And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house'.Robert Winterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10747910822318229159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-10232031549484814332009-11-29T23:23:26.623+13:002009-11-29T23:23:26.623+13:00Well, Conor, I love Aaron Sorkin's "The W...Well, Conor, I love Aaron Sorkin's "The West Wing" too. But ask yourself this question: <br /><br />"Why is it that politicians who speak like that only ever get elected in television drama series?"<br /><br />I think I know why. Let me tell you how I know.<br /><br />I know that guys like Gianelli only get elected in fictional television series because I tried it out in real life - as a candidate for the NewLabour Party in 1990. <br /><br />All that passion, all that rhetoric, all that 'let's have two parties' stuff - I had the lot. And I stood up there on the hustings alongside Pete Hodgson and Mike Cullen, and Conor, let me tell you, I was on fire.<br /><br />And guess what?<br /><br />I lost my deposit.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-75845003685535522009-11-29T23:13:08.880+13:002009-11-29T23:13:08.880+13:00Drinking Labourly with Phil Goff
Omar Hamed, Socia...Drinking Labourly with Phil Goff<br />Omar Hamed, SocialistAotearoa.org commentary-<br /><br /><br />"In the end I left with the feeling that Goff was preparing to move his party to the left, just as Clark had done at the end of the 1990s with the rhetoric of “closing the gaps”, but that the core values of the Labour Party were still the suppression of tino rangatiratanga, commitment to neo-liberalism and a pandering to powerful foreign interests in return for trade deals."Omar Hamed, Socialist Aotearoahttp://socialistaotearoa.blogspot.com/2009/11/drinking-labourly-with-phil-goff.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-87615314419468902612009-11-29T20:10:56.873+13:002009-11-29T20:10:56.873+13:00Chris,
Regards why "one law for all" is...Chris,<br /><br />Regards why "one law for all" isn't simple: you know that I'm not arguing against the sovereignty of parliament.<br /><br />Nor is your claim that the seabed and foreshore act took away no common-law rights to property reasonable: if it denied no possible common-law rights then they wouldn't have bloody well passed it. We both know that.<br /><br />So please, let us leave the straw men to moulder.<br /><br />The point is this:<br /><br />You can't consistently claim that "one law for all" is an argument against parliament passing a law that explicity grants Maori property rights (re reopening closed settlments and the current ETS fandango) and at the same time support passing a law explicitly designed to deny the possibility of common-law maori property rights in the foreshore and seabed debacle.<br /><br /><br />icehawkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28889142725537969972009-11-29T18:57:42.268+13:002009-11-29T18:57:42.268+13:00Just remember what Bruno Gianelli said about being...Just remember what Bruno Gianelli said about being a liberal:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCSMyFWTjRc&feature=player_embeddedConor Robertsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-43384205860554796672009-11-29T16:24:25.767+13:002009-11-29T16:24:25.767+13:00Chris, my understanding of this piece seems to be ...Chris, my understanding of this piece seems to be something along the lines of "well bugger the 'liberal left', they don't matter, if Goff going for the jugular gets Labour back in power then so be it'..<br /><br />My only question would really have to be, is it worth going racial and having that sort of scrap just to get Phil Goff into power? I think portraying him as a socialist who happens to be a bit more rough around the edges than those liberal left girly-types is pretty disingenuous isn't it? Why, it was only earlier this year that the man described the founding principles of the Labour Party as "19th century history" and that he saw no fault in our market based economy? I guess he still has a year or two in order to undergo some sort of personal conversion.. at the moment he seems to be doing everything in his power to follow in the footsteps of Bill English circa 2002. Maybe he should challenge Hone Harawira to a boxing match? I'm sure it would make for good television, at leastJonathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-4689216975819489412009-11-29T15:38:43.152+13:002009-11-29T15:38:43.152+13:00Chris
This is not worthy of you
I'm one of ...Chris <br /><br />This is not worthy of you<br /><br />I'm one of those who did protest over the Employment Contracts Act, who never saw Tino Rangatiratanga as anything more than a neo-feudal denial of Democracy and who regards the whole identity politics stich as, at best, a step sideways from what should be the main concerns of centre left governments. (Will Hutton has, from memory, written some good stuff on this).<br /><br />I would love to think that Goff is repositioning Labour back to its traditional place on the socio-economic left (although I am not as left as you). I just don't see the evidence.<br /><br />All I see is 'Orewa-Lite'with a bit of Mike Moore blokeism-Lite thrown in. <br /><br /> It may work and provide Labour with the electoral traction it needs. If so, I will be cynically pleased. But that's all.<br /><br />In the meantime you're asking us all to affirm the existence of the unproven.<br /><br />VictorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24722913471149724032009-11-29T15:28:57.565+13:002009-11-29T15:28:57.565+13:00The only sovereignty our constitution recognises i...<i>The only sovereignty our constitution recognises is the sovereignty of the people - ALL the people.</i><br /><br />If only!<br /><br />I take this side occasionally - it's how it should be - but the standard (and probably legally accurate) argument view is that Parliament is sovereign. It should change, but that's how it is at present.Graeme Edgelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03928755583921638414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-15342910111895125572009-11-29T15:14:32.534+13:002009-11-29T15:14:32.534+13:00Hear, hear!
http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2009/11/po...Hear, hear!<br /><br />http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2009/11/pointing-out-maori-party-has-stockholm.htmlBomberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06019007449666643244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-61871014166341872502009-11-29T13:59:46.156+13:002009-11-29T13:59:46.156+13:00What's truly depressing about some of the part...What's truly depressing about some of the participants in this thread is that they don't seem able to recognise a major political shift when they see one.<br /><br />Of course Goff hasn't come out and bluntly repudiated Labour's policy legacy of the past 25 years. In a society as dominated by neoliberal ideology (and its media enforcers) as this one, that would be foolhardy indeed. <br /><br />No, any repositioning must be undertaken slowly and carefully - taking advantage of populist opportunities like Harawira and the ETS debacle as they arise. (Rod Oram gets it - just read his column in today's SST.)<br /><br />I do concede, however, that telling the Drinking Liberally crowd that the only choice of economic systems on offer is the one between full-on neoliberalism and Stalinism - that was just plain silly. He's going to have to unlearn all of those 80s and 90s knee-jerk responses if he's going to pull this off.<br /><br />It's the metaphor of the oil tanker (horribly cliched though it may be) that's the right one to use here. Re-directing an entire economy, and the state which supports it, is not something that happens overnight - and you need a great deal of exogenous assistance. <br /><br />Mickey Savage couldn't have constructed the Welfare State outside the circumstances of the Great Depression. And Roger Douglas couldn't have laid it to waste in the absence of the global neoliberal counter-revolution which Thatcher and Reagan had ignited 5 years earlier (or, I strongly suspect, without the historical anomaly of Rob Muldoon). <br /><br />Read Naomi Klein for God's sake!<br /><br />And boy-oh-boy, I am so "over" all the self-serving, rhetorical BS that has grown up around the Foreshore & Seabed Act. <br /><br />This was neither a legal outrage, nor a neo-colonial "confiscation".<br /><br />No customary rights were extinguished, because no customary rights were established - although the Court of Appeal did concede that after clearing a very high legal threshold they might have been.<br /><br />The really crucial aspect of the case, however, (which Ngati Apa fully expected to lose BTW) was that the Court of Appeal's decision overturned several decades of what most NZ jurists believed to be settled law.<br /><br />In such circumstances it was not in the least unusual - let alone immoral - for the New Zealand legislature to reassert the status-quo ante. <br /><br />The doctrine of the separation of powers makes it clear that while the judiciary enjoys the sovereign right to interpret and apply the law, the ultimate power to make the law (offering the necessary bow here in the direction of judge-made common law) lies with the people - as represented in the legislative arm of the state. <br /><br />What the Maori nationalists are trying to sell us is the idea that once the Court of Appeal has pronounced upon a legal issue before it - that's it. End of story. <br /><br />Well, nice try comrades, but no cigar. We happen to live in a democracy - not a judicial dictatorship.<br /><br />The only sovereignty our constitution recognises is the sovereignty of the people - ALL the people.<br /><br />Besides, I don't recall the advocates of tino rangatiratanga mobilising their forces in defence of the hundreds of thousands of working class citizens who were denied their "day in court" by the passage of the Employment Contracts Act - the largest "legal" confiscation of citizens' rights in New Zealand history. <br /><br />But, hey, they were all just no-account, racist, sexist, homophobic, child-beating trailer-trash - not worth the shoe leather.<br /><br />Eh guys?Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45147538370456249382009-11-29T12:09:32.462+13:002009-11-29T12:09:32.462+13:00Robert Winter
I agree with you 100%. There is no ...Robert Winter<br /><br />I agree with you 100%. There is no new Socialist or even Social Democratic paradigm here. The closest we have got to that so far with Goff was his mild questioning of the Reserve Bank Act.<br /><br />I also take icehawk's point about "one law for all". <br /><br />Labour's foreshore legislation deprived Maori of their rights under the English Common Law, which (although revisable by statute) remains the basis of New Zealand's legal system and part of the cultural heritage of most Pakeha.<br /><br />You can't, as Chris does, complain about liberals who allegedly despise their own culture and, at the same time, celebrate the diminishment of so important a pillar of that culture.<br /><br />VictorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-22962776647275212572009-11-29T08:46:31.491+13:002009-11-29T08:46:31.491+13:00Well written thank you.
BUT: Where to from here f...Well written thank you.<br /><br />BUT: Where to from here for Goff? He cannot simply make a speech like this in-vacuo and expect it to continue to resonate through the electorate. Perhaps he has commenced a course he is not qualified to pursue? I suspect this is so and all we have here is a cynical opportunism to reap the political benefits of a disparate Maori Party.<br /><br />CadwalladerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-45422638626958714752009-11-29T08:33:27.362+13:002009-11-29T08:33:27.362+13:00How interesting that Mr Pagani joins the thread in...How interesting that Mr Pagani joins the thread in support of the blog's thesis. I become confused by its thrust, Are we talking about a politics that starts 'where people are' and takes them foward in a political project - a type of reflexive politics? Or is it a return to authentic (socialist) roots - a connection with traditional left politics, broken until now by liberal social movement activity? Or a Blair-like desire to create a politics that wins votes and will reconfigure politics with that sole end in mind? A piece on Blair in the Herald, but from a UK source, made this point rather well yesterday. All three possibilities may be discerned in the thread so far. <br /><br />I think that we have to distinguish clearly between what Mr Goff chose to say when he said it from some of the substance in the speecch. Chris is right that much of the substance is correct. But the context of its statement is supremely political and, if you will forgive the repetition, Chris' post-facto suggestion that the speech is a statement of a new, anti-liberel left labour politics (my paraphrase) is, I think too generous. Mr Goff is not, I think, the creator of a new left paradigm. Apart from being an excellent constituency MP, he is, and has been since the 1980s, quite openly a comfortably an intelligent, very hard working right wing member of the LP, pretty happy with economic orthodoxy, free trade, the WTO, the NZ-US alliance, Afghanistan involvement, labour market flexibility, punitive retribution in the judicial system, a hands-off approach to the unions etc etc. His orientation is not to a renewed proletarian vanguard, or, I think, even to s atrong Scandinavian-type social democracy. He is more akin to the forces that supported Blair. This,I think, makes Chris' argument untenable. It also suggests that the contingent nature of the Palmerston North speech has more to do with a political opportunism than a strategic redirection. I can only report that the LP members with whom I consort detect no such strategic direction and are currently chafing for one.<br /><br />If Chris is right, then it might be a good idea for Mr Goff to inform the LP that there is a new, regenerative game in town. We hadn't heard, at least. not in Auckland! Apologies for length.Robert Winterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10747910822318229159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-87978218901931628242009-11-29T08:11:10.112+13:002009-11-29T08:11:10.112+13:00Chris,
Your realpolitik certainly appeals to Cact...Chris,<br /><br />Your realpolitik certainly appeals to Cactus Kate, to Tanya the right-winger above, etc. The odd think is that you think they are the people the "Labour" party should appeal to, rather than those damn liberal-lefties. Are those right-wingers really your comrades? Really?<br /><br />As for the "one law for all" approach - of course it's right. But you're pretending it's simple, when it isn't. With the Foreshore "one law for all" is exactly what the Maori wanted, but when it turned out the courts said they had a claim to some parts of it, parliament's approach was to change the law to take away their property. So please don't pretend it's as *simple* as just saying that both groups should be treated equally under the law, when you also supported (and support) changing the law to take away one group's property.<br /><br /><br />icehawk<br /><br />PS: On the "you don't see rhetoric like that any more" front, I love the appeal to "historic forces" by an old leftist. It's an argument I haven't seen in ages. Of course you'll recall that it was an excuse that Lenin loved - the slaughters he oversaw weren't anyones fault, it was just historic forces too vast for blame, too permanent for guilt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1125373219751126972009-11-29T01:58:45.420+13:002009-11-29T01:58:45.420+13:00Lovely kai for thought as always Chris, but I'...Lovely kai for thought as always Chris, but I'd counsel restraint on your criticism of the <em>ingenues</em>, however justified and/or provoked. Internecine dissent is the deadliest disorder - in fact cancer defined - and the root of Labour IV from which the nation still recovers.<br /><br />And yep, love the new Goffo, but even more simplistic reversion required. As your spat with the puffy-shirt kids confirms, the truth of ages is almost lost: that crucial, apathetic 100,000 needs to hear "Labour for the poor, National for the rich" about ten thousand times (that's around the number of "Nanny state, North of $50/wk" repetitions that delivered us Grinny and the Dronetones)<br /><br />Speaking of cancer, the need for Goffy to revert even further, trumpet Helen's gains for Maori and reassert Closing the Gaps is urgent(none of this in is inconsistent with his latest speech), and caution on Maori Party attacks: more than a few vote-buying beads and blankets are being delivered below the radar - and ACT sits in the wings like a panting rotweiller. Destroy the MP leverage and Grinny-do-nothing will respond to media demand like clockwork.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-48764329972993606752009-11-28T23:13:27.299+13:002009-11-28T23:13:27.299+13:00Really, Idiot Savant, there are times when I serio...Really, Idiot Savant, there are times when I seriously question your powers of comprehension.<br /><br />I'm not channeling the National Front, here, nor am I sewing my bedsheets into Klansman's robes. <br /><br />All I'm doing is calling into question an ethical system that sees nothing untoward in applying one set of rules to one ethnic group, and an entirely different set to another. <br /><br />For surely, to absolve one group of the sins for which the other is relentlessly punished suggests - at the very least - bad faith. <br /><br />Punishing the sons for the sins of their fathers may have the authority of scripture, but it's an odd proposition for any self-respecting citizen of the 21st Century to be defending.<br /><br />We fair-skinned Polynesians are no longer “Europeans”. Just as contemporary Maori are no longer – and can never be again – the Maori who inhabited these islands before colonisation. <br /><br />Both of us are the victims - and beneficiaries - of historical forces too vast for blame, too permanent for guilt.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-59895237830704070462009-11-28T20:56:05.624+13:002009-11-28T20:56:05.624+13:00Nothing to disagree with here Chris.Nothing to disagree with here Chris.Cactus Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136331420768264938noreply@blogger.com