tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post7952236047384362066..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Mr Jones Goes To TaranakiChris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-81826042648898320392013-07-28T11:35:38.234+12:002013-07-28T11:35:38.234+12:00Some examples, Jigsaw. Are you referring to Workin...Some examples, Jigsaw. Are you referring to Working For Families? Kiwisaver? The Cullen Fund?<br /><br />Let's try to be specific, Jigsaw - and offer up some evidence.<br /><br />As for your charge that I wear rose-tinted spectacles when evaluating the successes and failures of "socialist" governments - past and present.<br /><br />Well, I'll let Bowalley Road's readership judge the accuracy of that statement.<br /><br />In my own defence, let me just say that I do my best to be as critical (in the true sense of the word) of those on the Left as I am of those on the Right.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26229650041687787882013-07-27T20:34:25.256+12:002013-07-27T20:34:25.256+12:00 Chris -you are impervious to any evidence that co... Chris -you are impervious to any evidence that contradicts your socialist philosophy, Brendan is quite correct in saying that it a common belief that just a little more funds will make a programme work.The multitude of programmes that the last Labour government ran-the majority without any real evaluation proved the point.Take off you rose tinted socialist glasses.Jigsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13906156865367357834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1948948057891927002013-07-27T13:22:08.937+12:002013-07-27T13:22:08.937+12:00Big deal. This is the way it's going Jones or ...Big deal. This is the way it's going Jones or no.<br /><br />http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/07/what-happened-to-economic-mobility-in-america/278142/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-40782957541000989602013-07-27T10:52:44.018+12:002013-07-27T10:52:44.018+12:00Hi Chris
I understand the phrase "a rising ti...Hi Chris<br />I understand the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" comes from JFK. So it has great 'progressive' credibility. Or it did. Not even Obama believes it now.<br /><br />According to the <i>NY Times</i> of July 22, he says that "prosperity does not trickle down, and a rising tide does not necessarily lift all boats. The conservative policies predicated on those ideas, he maintains, amount to a you’re-on-your-own economics" (<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/23/us/politics/president-adopts-catchphrase-to-describe-proposed-recipe-for-economic-revival.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>).<br /><br />Why would he think so? Most likely because "In 2010, the top 1 percent of U.S. families captured as much as 93 percent of the nation’s income growth" (<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-02/top-1-got-93-of-income-growth-as-rich-poor-gap-widened.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>).<br /><br />Things are not so bad in NZ, though that is the faintest of praise. A few days ago, Max Rashbrooke reported research showing "From 1980 to 2008, New Zealand’s top 1% captured 20% of total income growth" (<a href="http://www.inequality.org.nz/top-1-has-got-one-fifth-of-recent-growth-says-oecd/" rel="nofollow">here</a>). <br /><br />That rising tide has something of a slope on it, and many boats remain beached.<br /><br />cheers<br />DavidDavidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77747543745412101462013-07-27T10:25:10.620+12:002013-07-27T10:25:10.620+12:00What is more, Chris, Jones went on further to comm...What is more, Chris, Jones went on further to comment that East Coast and<br />Far North Maori appeared to be siding alongside the Greens when it came to<br />mineral extraction in their own patches. He didn't bother to say (or find<br />out) that there are very real environmental concerns about "sustaining the<br />(current) livelihood of people" should such mineral extraction go ahead.<br />Mineral extraction is well known to bring environmental damage in its wake -<br />and it is that people object to. I find it objectionable that Jones is so<br />dismissive of the concerns of his own people in the north about the<br />potential disastrous activities of mining companies. He needs to get out and<br />talk to them, rather than just the Taranaki oil and gas business people.jenny kirknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2612975278080026642013-07-27T10:23:41.714+12:002013-07-27T10:23:41.714+12:00And a rising tide is exactly what we will be getti...And a rising tide is exactly what we will be getting thanks to the burning of oil and coal over the last century. We need to be reducing our use of fossil fuel and investing in clean tech solutions otherwise the future is bleak. If you are very, very rich you will be okay but the children of the working class will inherit a seriously degraded earth.<br />Karennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-80853712211309391072013-07-27T09:39:54.430+12:002013-07-27T09:39:54.430+12:00The problem is, Shane Jones is just one MP in the ...The problem is, Shane Jones is just one MP in the Labour caucus who seems to be in a faction of one person. What is the rest of hose MPs saying, including Shearer. Apparently whatever their real leaders in the Green Party tell them to. Or otherwise they are focussing on critical issues of our time, such as the manban. (Which we all know has not really been cancelled, it has just gone on the down-low. Wonder if they will even tell the poor male saps competing in the "chosen" electorates that they are wasting their time. I imagine not, as anything is ok for the cause and they need to make it look convincing).<br /><br />In other words, Shane Jones saying some traditional Labour words does not mean they have changed course.OneTracknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-2302999381935512882013-07-26T18:22:01.776+12:002013-07-26T18:22:01.776+12:00You mean someone in the labour caucus cares about ...You mean someone in the labour caucus cares about the voters who do not turn out to vote for labour?<br /><br />Surely, you jest, Sir!peterpeasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258344040688251441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-61037131217679474542013-07-26T17:56:24.021+12:002013-07-26T17:56:24.021+12:00Writing to endorse what David said there. Until r...Writing to endorse what David said there. Until recently I'd have needed to add a long-winded explanation of just how dependent human agriculture and thereby civilization are on the services of the natural environment, but now I can draw all that to mind in one word: "Honeybees".Daniel Copelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05944461326199566111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-51248205710477805252013-07-26T14:36:15.879+12:002013-07-26T14:36:15.879+12:00“Sustainability is as much about sustaining the li...“Sustainability is as much about sustaining the livelihood of people as it is about guarding the ecological habitat of the Hochstetter’s frog."<br /><br />This argument actually, and always, means that where there is competiton between humans and other lifeforms, the other lifeforms lose. And this is the choice in all environmental issues. However, the reality is that humans survive off other lifeforms and to destroy the environment means people can no longer sustain their own existence. The argument of Shane Jones, National etc only has one end and it is not a positive one. Green supporters aren't against business but realise that it has to make compromises with the environment so both survive. It's pretty obvious to Green supporters what is the easist route to take - we are not stupid. But we are also smart enough to know where the easist route will lead, and how much more it will cost New Zealanders in the long run. It's called making the hard choices. Labour is never going to win back the seats it has lost to the Green Party and will slowly and surely lose more because the around half of the New Zealand population who understand the path that needs to be taken will vote for a party they know will make the hard choices. I predict the Green Party will keep the present number of seats at the next election and may even go down slightly. But within a couple more election cycles the Greens will quite likely have around 20 percent of the vote, given that people like Shane Jones continue to exert considerable power in the Labour Party to the point where it is virtually paralysed.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-26526107670381613862013-07-26T14:19:05.621+12:002013-07-26T14:19:05.621+12:00Fair enough :-)Fair enough :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-46034020815430960302013-07-26T11:17:03.505+12:002013-07-26T11:17:03.505+12:00To: Anonymous@10:50AM
Not really. Trickle-down th...To: Anonymous@10:50AM<br /><br />Not really. Trickle-down theory argues that if you tailor your policies towards the enrichment of the already wealthy, some of their increased wealth will eventually be spent in ways which benefit their economic inferiors.<br /><br />The "rising tide" argument is about generating economic growth on a scale that lifts wages and employment as well as profits and investment.<br /><br />An important difference.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-54623669224693854742013-07-26T11:13:20.493+12:002013-07-26T11:13:20.493+12:00Oh, Brendan.
If I thought it would do any good I&...Oh, Brendan.<br /><br />If I thought it would do any good I'd invite you to read some economic history.<br /><br />Economies are man-made - they are not natural phenomena like the tides. (Helen was speaking met-a-phor-i-cally.)Consequently, they are subject to human alteration and control.<br /><br />The economic paradigm you so doggedly defend is merely one iteration among many varying, yet perfectly serviceable, models of economic organisation.<br /><br />But, what would be the point? As everybody at Bowalley Road knows, you're impervious to any kind of evidence which contradicts and/or invalidates your naïve free-market assumptions.<br /><br />Sad.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-58145381843714936392013-07-26T10:50:42.398+12:002013-07-26T10:50:42.398+12:00 “A rising tide lifts all boats.”,
Trickle down ... “A rising tide lifts all boats.”, <br /><br />Trickle down theory???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-75137900362455812682013-07-26T09:53:30.351+12:002013-07-26T09:53:30.351+12:00Hi Chris
I enjoyed the truism contained in Helen&...Hi Chris<br /><br />I enjoyed the truism contained in Helen's remark: <br /><br />“A rising tide lifts all boats.”<br /><br />I invite you however to identify any government that has been able to influence the tides. The problem we face is that most politicians, and a good deal of the voting public believe they can; all they need is just a little more tax payers money and it can be achieved....Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.com