tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post9066661459518336648..comments2024-03-29T17:12:19.648+13:00Comments on Bowalley Road: Yanis Varoufakis: A Hero Worthy Of His Heritage.Chris Trotterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-25794652571927599842015-07-17T08:13:23.764+12:002015-07-17T08:13:23.764+12:00No prob Pat, I see your point. The majority of Gre...No prob Pat, I see your point. The majority of Greeks want to stay in the Euro and Tsipras knew that. He is in-experienced too which played a part. The main stumbling block was the complete intractability of the German side. Merkel and Schauble had said categorically that the German Banks were not going to take a hit. But now they will have to, the debt is unpayable. <br /><br />We can wax on lyrically about how the Greeks were/are spendthrifts but when a lender keeps on lending knowing that the debt is too large and the borrower cant pay it back, the lender is equally at fault.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66392500315007270612015-07-16T20:39:29.722+12:002015-07-16T20:39:29.722+12:00disagree Davo...he had a choice and should have wa...disagree Davo...he had a choice and should have walked....yes they would have had banking collapse and major issues with imports in the short term but they could default, devalue and start to rebuild their economy on their own terms....whereas by accepting they have condemned themselves to an indeterminate period of foreign retribution before the former occurs anyway....there is no possibility of Greece being able to survive in the single currency, indeed there is no chance the single currency itself can survive in anything like its current form.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-34774449847501813092015-07-16T15:55:29.618+12:002015-07-16T15:55:29.618+12:00Had no choice Richard, that's patently obvious...Had no choice Richard, that's patently obvious. The Troika made demands and were not prepared to compromise. Which is what true negotiations are about -- compromise. And time was running out for Tsipras.<br /><br />There is no way out of this situation for Greece or the Troika either except to forgive the debt and the German Banks taking a big hit. The alternative is to turn Greece into another Somalia. A third world nation - nay a fourth world one! I note that the IMF has withdrawn from the deal stating correctly that Greece hasn't a hope in hell of ever paying off the debt.<br /><br />As I have stated here and elsewhere, this issue between Greece and Germany is political not financial.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-28221536856816646502015-07-16T09:19:44.681+12:002015-07-16T09:19:44.681+12:00How interesting that the Tsipras government has ju...How interesting that the Tsipras government has just disregarded the recent decision of the Greek people by accepting further truckloads of money from German taxpayers in return for inflicting that same vicious austerity that apparently works for individuals but not for countries. No wonder the petrol bombs are flying outside the Greek parliament. What an utter betrayal!Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-426869961167553222015-07-15T13:30:25.040+12:002015-07-15T13:30:25.040+12:00Anonymous 9.24. If you try to read a little more w...Anonymous 9.24. If you try to read a little more widely, you will find that although game theory is still used, many people now at least feel that the prisoner's dilemma is rubbish. And if we're talking about broad and buffoonish, well words almost fail me. Your comment is full of spelling and grammatical errors, which I wouldn't normally comment on except – "buffoonish".<br />I think you'll find that the comment about the Greek minister's lack of political skills is simply that he lacked negotiating skills. Not that his economics were necessarily incorrect. I'd accept his take on the Greek financial crisis over some anonymous, semi-incoherent, ungrammatical, anonymous person on the Internet anyway. :-)<br />Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-43973749281950230082015-07-15T11:51:10.387+12:002015-07-15T11:51:10.387+12:00Chris, you try and smear free market ("neolib...Chris, you try and smear free market ("neoliberal") economics with the Mussolini's collectivist politics. Sorry, but a reading of the facts refutes that smear completely.<br /><br />You should already know that Mussolini was an admirer of J M Keynes, and wrote: “Fascism entirely agrees with Mr. Maynard Keynes, despite the latter’s prominent position as a Liberal. In fact, Mr. Keynes’ excellent little book, The End of Laissez-Faire (1926) might, so far as it goes, serve as a useful introduction to fascist economics. There is scarcely anything to object to in it and there is much to applaud.”<br /><br />He also opined: “The Fascist conception of life accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with the State. . . . Fascism reasserts the rights of the state. If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government.” In his 1928 autobiography, Mussolini made clear his dislike for liberal capitalism: “The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity.”Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763002401676224819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-77214925984415881302015-07-15T10:36:17.898+12:002015-07-15T10:36:17.898+12:00Excuse me, Anonymous@9:24, but at between 40,000 t...Excuse me, Anonymous@9:24, but at between 40,000 to 60,000 page-views per month, Bowalley Road hovers around the mid-point of the top-20 non-commercial blogs in New Zealand - and easily makes it into the top-10 political blogs.<br /><br />So there!Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-14855524237937662062015-07-15T10:26:37.397+12:002015-07-15T10:26:37.397+12:00as we approach 100 years since the rise of Fascism...as we approach 100 years since the rise of Fascism we note that with those with personal experience of what that caused are now almost to a man and woman deceased, we see the current generations doomed to repeat the madness....slow motion train wreck.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76768660706232814392015-07-15T09:24:33.096+12:002015-07-15T09:24:33.096+12:00more hot wind by gorilla, game theory is alive and...more hot wind by gorilla, game theory is alive and kicking in economics and operations research/AI, you reveal your ignorance by these broad loud and bufoonish outspewings of phooey - but your not a blogger, just a prolific commenter in a little read blog so I guess we can excuse you for shouting out nonsense dressed up as rigourous analysis - after all Rob Salmond is paid to do the same thing with race based profiling. <br /><br />On Varouflakis's achievements as finance minister Ill go no further than quote the words of the greek prime minister Alexis Tsypris "his former finance minister was a great economist; that doesn’t always translate into political skills, though" kinda says it all really.<br /><br />Im fully behind Greece in theyre decision to embrace austerity (as I would be with a decision to default), theyve made a concrete decision and I have big respect for Syriza now, they dont like austerity and lament Greece's woes but they are committing to a course of action which if we are honest has been forced on them now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-24135201336923756252015-07-15T05:47:45.758+12:002015-07-15T05:47:45.758+12:00Paul Krugman explains why Austerity simply doesn&#...Paul Krugman explains why Austerity simply doesn't work in this clip from the BBC.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ADkMVGABPAIDavo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-76902834716387386822015-07-14T18:29:02.489+12:002015-07-14T18:29:02.489+12:004 months of standard negotiations.
another month ...4 months of standard negotiations.<br /><br />another month manufactured by delaying payments.<br /><br />then a fortnight added on to that after 'running rings around them' with a referendum.<br /><br />and not once in any day in that entire time did the Tsipras team manage to propose a coherent economic growth strategy.<br /><br />in fact so poor were their economic proposals, that it took the French team to come in and draft a sufficiently detailed counter proposal to restart negotiations in the first place - and that detailed counter proposal was pretty much identical to the unacceptable one that was rejected in the referendum.<br /><br />when your finance minister and his entire ministry cannot produce any credible economic proposals over 5 and a half months, you know that they are useless.<br /><br />and let us not forget, 6 months ago, Greece was able to obtain loans again on the bond market, its unemployment was falling at a significant rate (especially so give that was winter and the tourist season had not started), and the economy was growing again. Three things that have been demonstrably untrue since Varoufakis came into the ministry<br /><br />so by what measure exactly does Varoufakis qualify as a hero of the left?<br /><br />Another great victory for the far left, indeed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-80615532295058732792015-07-14T14:54:10.216+12:002015-07-14T14:54:10.216+12:00Al Jazeera has a good video on what is happening i...Al Jazeera has a good video on what is happening in Greece. Watch it through.<br /><br />http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/specialseries/2015/07/agora-democracy-market-150701120718536.htmlDavo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-3544880781625444252015-07-14T13:39:11.812+12:002015-07-14T13:39:11.812+12:00Wayne, and this time I will take it for granted yo...Wayne, and this time I will take it for granted you are Wayne. Good point on the economists. I was making the point that economists are usually pretty monolithically right wing. And that they are in fact more and more divided, and more and more of them are coming round to the idea that austerity doesn't work – as I have said – except under very strict circumstances. And this is not just people like Krugman. I was unclear, I apologise. I am however pretty certain that the troika can find enough unshaken economists to make sure that Greece gets a thorough caning. <br />Including things I might add that Germany refuses to do in its own economy.<br /><br />Anonymous, as far as game theory goes – I said he's destroyed the game theory that is beloved of economists. I didn't say anything about the origins, which I do in fact know. Again I may have been unclear. Specifically though, the prisoner's dilemma has been debunked by more than just Varoufakis. I think it's now regarded as dead in the water by many if not most. Certainly I think psychologists might take issue with it, but then economists have always had a mistaken view of the psychology of the individual and to some extent the group.<br /><br />Charles – what was Venezuela like before the terrible socialists got in? I think you'll find that most poor people prefer the socialists. A few middle-class people maybe can't get enough toilet paper, but the poor are eating a lot better. I know which I prefer.<br /><br />What really annoys me though is this. No one mentions the consequences within Greece. And I guarantee there would be gasps of horror if I were to ask a question like "How many kids with malnutrition are you prepared to see on the streets of Athens in the name of austerity?" The Col. blimps like spluttering would of course be a cover-up for the fact that the right never cares about the consequences of its actions, because they are insulated from them. Oh wait – of course – it's their own fault.Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-52061455651609895292015-07-14T10:21:31.341+12:002015-07-14T10:21:31.341+12:00What money is actually being lent Wayne? As a Poli...What money is actually being lent Wayne? As a Politician you should know how it works. There is no MONEY, just a promise to pay. <br /><br />Schauble is an old war horse, passed his use by date and needs to be put out to pasture, better still sent to the glue factory. At least with the latter he would have a little redeemable value. He is a believer in German exceptionalism and there is no place for that in modern society.<br /><br />I can't see the Euro lasting in it's present form, it's too rigid.Davo Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-74984071500008803652015-07-14T08:17:42.933+12:002015-07-14T08:17:42.933+12:00Hi Chris
Just listening to an interview on A B...Hi Chris<br /> Just listening to an interview on A B C radio with Varoufakis its' clear that I was mistaken in thinking he was still closely involved in steering the Greek negotiations. His withdrawal will have been a bad blow to Tsypris's strength in an impossible negotiation.<br />Cheers David J SDavid Stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50941082750452745352015-07-14T07:49:02.886+12:002015-07-14T07:49:02.886+12:00Chris,
I was unaware of the connection with Musso...Chris,<br /><br />I was unaware of the connection with Mussolini's fascists. I had more in mind the stern nurse of Victorian or Edwardian times. Perhaps angela Merkel quite neatly fits that mould.<br /><br />I am pretty sure most Greeks would perceive what is happening as stern medicine. <br /><br />Guerrilla Surgeon, I note you refer to "economists" as if it means all of them them. I am pretty certain the Eurozone will be designing their prescriptions with the assistance of leading economists.<br /><br />In any event the deal now seems to be done. <br /><br />Of course Greece did have an alternative option. They could have gone for their own currency, and therefore not followed the Eurozone prescription. This would of course still result in wages and prices being more aligned to market conditions, except that it would have been achieved by a dramatic devaluation, which can't be done by staying in the Euro. Therefore the Greeks have to make the adjustments by changing the law around pensions, labour reform etc by virtue of their decision to stay in the Euro.<br /><br />The point being is that if you want other people to give (lend) you money, you have to agree with their conditions. You can't vote for other people beyond your jurisdiction to give you money. As the Greeks have just learnt.<br />Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-72738205813577548902015-07-14T07:38:34.405+12:002015-07-14T07:38:34.405+12:00Chris,
I was unaware of the connection with Musso...Chris,<br /><br />I was unaware of the connection with Mussolini's fascists. I had more in mind the stern nurse of Victorian or Edwardian times. Perhaps angela Merkel quite neatly fits that mould.<br /><br />I am pretty sure most Greeks would perceive what is happening as stern medicine. <br /><br />Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-5528138329712748302015-07-14T07:30:17.463+12:002015-07-14T07:30:17.463+12:00"who's pretty much destroyed game theory,..."who's pretty much destroyed game theory, beloved of neoliberal economists" - actually Varoufakis is an expert on game theory and used it when working as an economist for Valve corporation. Game theory is hardly 'neoliberal' it was worked out by mathematicians and is used for decision theory in operations research, artificial intelligence and computer science - oh and economists and political scientists use it for modelling conflict/resolution situations - prisoners dilemma being a great example.<br /><br />Varoufakis is a very good micro economist, but Wayne is correct in that he is rubbish as a finance minister. <br /><br />Syriza had a golden opportunity to argue a strong case against blind austerity which for most of the southern eurozone countries has had poor results (it has worked for some eastern members). Instead after 5 tumultuous months of buffoonish brinkmanship by the tweedledee and tweedledum duet of Varoufakis and Sypris we have Greece on the verge of a grexit and economic collapse and any alternative paths to austerity (fiscal expansions to ease the adjustment pains of structural reforms) are off the table. Great work Syriza job well done, time to go to the polls and get a slightly less useless set of leaders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-32855445999870402192015-07-13T18:31:34.241+12:002015-07-13T18:31:34.241+12:00Did you know Greece celebrates Oxi Day every Octob...Did you know Greece celebrates Oxi Day every October, which marks their 'No!' to Italy on surrender just before invasion in 1940. Worth celebrating indeed and good on them.<br />However that was probably partly what the absurd vote the other day was about.<br />After reading four detailed pages of last week’s Economist on the history of the crisis and recent ‘errors’ in Greece I think these points are salient:<br />1. Greece needs a welfare effort from the rest of Europe, since they are part of their family; are neighbours; and many Greeks are innocent of their reckless governments' duplicity and incompetence; compassion is called for as was the case for the defeated peoples after WWII;<br />2. Their economy was nearing recovery mode when the current unreliable and reckless lot were elected and ensured a third bail out would be inevitable, or bankruptcy;<br />3. The Euro leaders and their banks made things worse going back a few years now by imposing excessive austerity, so significant debt should be written off;<br />4. The other Euro nations should not have admitted Greece to the Euro, although the greater guilt for that goes to the government at the time which lied and cheated its way in, admittedly with help from capitalists; then continued to lie and cheat, although other nations in the Euro have done some of that too;<br /><br />Oxi would be my vote on any hero status for Varoufakis & his boss. I don't see any moral high ground justified on the left here at all, as socialist Greek governments have been as bad as any, and the current one takes the cake. Sticking a bunch of fingers up to the rest of the Euro-zone may get some cheers from the left but it is just more childish idiocy. How well has militant socialist rhetoric and policy worked for Venezuela? There goes Greece?<br />Hope not. We should all go on holiday there when they issue their own currency.<br /><br />Charles Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-85267892814050599972015-07-13T18:11:45.438+12:002015-07-13T18:11:45.438+12:00and it is wondered why people disengage from polit...and it is wondered why people disengage from politics when Mr Mapp is a prime example of politicians inability to analyse and respond to a problem.....the even scarier thought is politicians ability appears to be decreasing with the passage of time if the current crop are anything to go by.pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08727942156598555852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-50016064396463706582015-07-13T17:01:33.227+12:002015-07-13T17:01:33.227+12:00Dammit AutoCorrect that's austerity! :-)Dammit AutoCorrect that's austerity! :-)Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-21886632062793966142015-07-13T12:25:47.960+12:002015-07-13T12:25:47.960+12:00God Wayne, even economists now realise that the fi...God Wayne, even economists now realise that the first wave of posterity caused the Greek economy to contract, and the debt to GDP ratio to spiral upwards. The troika has continuously operated in favour of the interests of private banks, and the Greeks in typical right-wing fashion are considered to be "sinning" somehow. The tip of the hat IMO to the puritan origins of neoliberalism.<br />I'm not at all sure that your pathways are clear, but in the absence of their own currency, making labour cheaper is more difficult than it would be by devaluing. Which they can't do. <br />The Greek public sector may in fact be no more corrupt and inefficient than anywhere else, it's very difficult to measure, yet everyone on the right seem so sure that its true. And – I get tired of saying this yet again – Greece's proportion of public servants was about average. Considerably lower than some of the countries that are criticising them.<br />It's not as if Greece is alone in its economic woes. Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland are all to some extent buggered. Perhaps we should start admitting that the fault is with the euro rather than Greece itself.<br />Not to mention that promises were broken about further debt relief once Greece had achieved surplus. Which it did in 2013. <br />Fuck me this is complicated, and you can't just say Greece's problems are simply due to pricing of labour. It's this bullshit oversimplification that makes me feel that neoliberalism is more of a religion than a rational belief.<br />Guerilla Surgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03427876447124021423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-66543184235635292542015-07-13T11:45:27.368+12:002015-07-13T11:45:27.368+12:00Oh, Wayne! If I had racked my brain for a week I c...Oh, Wayne! If I had racked my brain for a week I could not have conceived of a more delicious response.<br /><br />You do realise that the forcible administration of Castor Oil to their left-wing opponents was one of the signature acts of brutality perpetrated by Mussolini's fascisti?<br /><br />To see you (inadvertently?) refer to this practice as being something which the Greeks must endure (for their own good, of course, which is also what Mussolini's thugs told their victims) perfectly illustrates both the overwhelming power imbalance between the Eurozone and Greece, as well as the political savagery with which it is being expressed.<br /><br />I have always suspected that, in extremis, the brutal totalitarian impulses buried deep in the heart of the neoliberal project would reveal themselves.<br /><br />You have, albeit unwittingly, validated my suspicion.Chris Trotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081613281183460899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-36348356454188862722015-07-13T11:45:02.966+12:002015-07-13T11:45:02.966+12:00And I do think when youth unemployment is north of...<i>And I do think when youth unemployment is north of 50% there is almost certainly a problem that they are being priced out of the labour market.</i><br /><br />Dear God. Did it never occur to you that the problem might be lack of aggregate demand, meaning lowered economic output, meaning higher unemployment?<br /><br />This is like reading about those classical economists who insisted that unemployment could only ever be a temporary phenomenon, and that any attempt by the government to intervene could only make the situation worse. The Great Depression proved them wrong once, but clearly that wasn't enough... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3753486518085091399.post-1247313827544754422015-07-13T11:23:43.572+12:002015-07-13T11:23:43.572+12:00Chris,
Clearly I do prefer market solutions. And ...Chris,<br /><br />Clearly I do prefer market solutions. And I do think when youth unemployment is north of 50% there is almost certainly a problem that they are being priced out of the labour market.<br /><br />In my view it is pretty obvious the Greek economy needs radical reformation, and that means making it more market responsive.<br /><br />Otherwise the economy will continue to shrink.<br /><br />I do think staying in the euro makes it harder, but this is the choice they have made. If they want more immediate credit, and a debt write off (which they probably need), they are going to have to take their castor oil. Not very palatable, but necessary.Wayne Mapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906396523791648270noreply@blogger.com