Monday 17 April 2023

Debating Debating.

Arguments-To-Go: Trained to espouse only the “correct” version of reality, the idea of giving “incorrect” ideas access to the mass media, must strike a large number of young journalists as just plain wrong.


THAT TELEVISION NEW ZEALAND saw fit to run a news item on the subject of political debate tells us something. Unfortunately, it is that we have a very big problem on our hands.

A generation has grown to adulthood for whom the idea that all important issues have at least two sides has acquired a counterintuitive aspect. It is a generation raised to believe that all the great questions that formerly divided society have been resolved.

To indicate otherwise, by affirming ideas that have been consigned, with extreme prejudice, to the dustbin of history, is to signal a form of individual and social pathology. Such persons may merit treatment, but what they absolutely must not be given is an audience.

What was it, then, that prompted TVNZ’s Laura Frykberg to pull together an item on political debate? The answer would appear to be the events surrounding the visit to New Zealand of the controversial women’s-rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull – also known as “Posie Parker”. Those events have clearly caused a number of journalists to re-examine the way New Zealand’s mainstream news media responded to Keen-Minshull’s visit. A much smaller number may even have asked themselves whether the media’s response played a part in stoking the violence which Keen-Minshull’s presence unleashed.

Frykberg’s framing of the item was, however, rather curious. Viewers were introduced to a clutch of high-school debaters – as if their highly formulaic “sport” in any way resembles genuine political debate. Skilled debaters are expected to acquit themselves effectively regardless of the subject matter. Being on the “Affirmative”, or the “Negative”, team should be a matter of supreme indifference to these “sporting” debaters. They expect to be judged solely on the organisation and delivery of their team’s arguments.

Genuine political debate could hardly be more different from this argumentative cleverness. When real human passions are engaged, debates can become extremely fraught affairs. One has only to encounter the fiercely committed protagonists and antagonists of abortion in the United States to gain some appreciation of the powerful emotions that are all-too-easily aroused by profound differences of opinion.

It is possible that the increasing disinclination to debate contentious issues, a trend already evident in the nation’s universities, is a reflection of the emotional frailty of many younger New Zealanders. More and more we hear the argument that free speech causes real harm to persons of a sensitive disposition. Certainly, hearing one’s cherished beliefs trashed by someone in possession of finely-honed rhetorical skills can be a devastating experience. Especially so, if one’s personal identity has been, to a large extent, constructed out of those beliefs.

In order to avoid upsetting their paying customers, universities have begun to downplay the idea that there are multiple ways of looking at contentious issues, in favour of the notion that there is only one “correct” viewpoint which, if not acknowledged by students, may severely limit their academic success. From this position it is but a short step to denying those with “incorrect” views a “platform”, or to the shouting-down of any dissenters who make it as far as the stage.

Emerging from this environment, it is easy to see why university graduates – especially those from the liberal arts and communications studies – might find it both strange and intolerable to end up in institutions where the tradition of allowing all sides of an issue to be aired remains deeply entrenched. Trained to espouse only the “correct” version of reality, the idea of giving “incorrect” ideas access to the “bully pulpit” of the mass media, can only strike a large number of these youngsters as just plain wrong.

But, what to do about it? The experience, both overseas and here in New Zealand, is for younger journalists to stage in-house uprisings against what they see as excessive editorial tolerance of incorrect ideas and practices. Rather than defend the tradition of ideological diversity in journalism, most editors, publishers and broadcasters are opting to bow to the will of the young people destined to replace them.

Thanks to the events surrounding Keen-Minshull’s visit, however, at least some journalists have been given cause to re-think their attitudes. The news-media’s repetition of the charge that Keen-Minshull was an “anti-trans activist” – rather than a “women’s-rights campaigner” – contributed significantly to the aggressive temper of her opponents. Educated to regard the exercise of the “Heckler’s Veto” as an entirely legitimate tactic, trans-gender activists felt morally entitled to monster Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull off her stage and out of the public square.

That this led directly to serious assaults against those who had gathered to hear Keen-Minshull speak (much of it captured on video) only made it harder for mainstream journalists to square their consciences with the behaviour a growing chorus of critics has condemned as overtly partisan media incitement.

Frykberg is to be congratulated for addressing the pros and cons of political debate on the Six O’clock News. Traditionalists might quibble that it would have been more enlightening to examine the way in which Members of Parliament deal with the passions aroused by genuine political debate, rather than the amoral artifice of school debaters. She might also have touched upon the highly contestable claims of Sarah Hendrica Bickerton of Tohatoha – a not-for-profit outfit dedicated to a “just and equitable Internet” – and Sir Geoffrey Palmer’s discombobulation at social media’s subversive mobilisation of non-elite opinion.

Taken as a whole, however, Frykberg’s item constitutes a welcome indication that the mainstream media is finally engaging in a little self-reflection. And it’s catching, at least within Television New Zealand. Frykberg’s Saturday item was followed the next morning by the Q+A programme’s decision to interview the former head of the American Civil Liberties Union, Professor Nadine Strossen, whose forthright defence of freedom of expression – even Keen-Minshull’s – left the host, Jack Tame, looking ever-so-slightly (and uncharacteristically) contrite.

Back in the 1970s, the Right used to joke that a liberal was a conservative who had yet to be mugged by reality. Both Frykberg and Tame, while not exactly the victims of a mugging, show signs of having, at the very least, witnessed something uncomfortably close to one.

As an old lefty, I can attest to the emotional wrench involved in having to own-up to the wrongs of people you once believed were doing the right thing. It took me a long time to realise that exposing bad behaviour – especially by those who purport to share your values – is by far the best way to ensure the survival of those values. Journalists, in particular, must never play favourites. There will always be two sides to an important story – usually more than two. The trick is to give every side the opportunity to present its case – and then allow the audience to make up its own mind.


This essay was originally posted on the Interest.co.nz website on Monday, 17 April 2023.

23 comments:

R-Lo said...

Given that minorities who are 'different' have always borne the brunt of censorship, you would think that today's minorities would be more appreciative of the significant human rights achievements of our (admittedly imperfect) liberal democracies. The way things are heading, I can only imagine how surprised todays activists will be when the hammers batter down their doors.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

"In order to avoid upsetting their paying customers, universities have begun to downplay the idea that there are multiple ways of looking at contentious issues, in favour of the notion that there is only one “correct” viewpoint which, if not acknowledged by students, may severely limit their academic success."

There might be a certain amount of truth in this but I'd like to see evidence of it. Certainly the idea of students as paying customers strikes a note with me. But I finished my "dotage degree" in the social sciences 18 months ago and didn't see much evidence of it. I certainly disagree with at least some of the more airy fairy ideas, and got pretty good marks for making a case against them. There were long and involved arguments with other students as well, and very civilised they were. But as PJ O'Rourke once said, "old age and cunning will always be youth and a bad haircut."

'The news-media’s repetition of the charge that Keen-Minshull was an “anti-trans activist” – rather than a “women’s-rights campaigner” '

I would suggest that in no way is this woman a women's rights campaigner and that the press were right to suggest that she is an anti-trans activist. She is also a provocateur, who makes money from stirring up trouble. And outside agitator as conservatives used to call them. Not of course if they agree with what they are saying.

That said, the behaviour at her attempted speech was pretty damned appalling. If they'd just heckled and taken the piss, all power to them, and heckler's veto be damned. One thing, probably the only thing I admired about Muldoon was his ability to play hecklers. And let's face it, she's the one with the big sound system. And of course she could have held a rally indoors and controlled who went in – but I suspect she at least half wanted a result like this. Perhaps not quite so violent. It all clicks in the end.

This used to be part of political life, and I'm rather sad that it seems to have disappeared under the softball TV interviews and the focus groups. Wayne Brown is a prime example – doesn't like talking to the nasty press that might ask him awkward questions – just wants softball interviews. About the only politicians who front up to their constituents these days are Maori – sad.

Anonymous said...

Bravo Chris !
What then to make of KiwiBank deciding the odious Shaneel Lal is " The Young New Zealander of the year".( he's actually Fijian btw)
Martyn Bradbury has thankfully ,on The Daily Blog, provided a clear insight as to exactly what sort of 'human' Lal is....and it's not nice ! If I had a KiwiBank account...I'd be closing it stat.

2blad said...

looking forward to returning to New Zealand after 5 years away and seeing if the NZ Media as poor quality as I have been told. Your article seems to indicate some slight signs of a return to the basics of good Journalism, I do hope so.This trip fills me with dread as much as excitement as it seems that somehow many Kiwis have been fed a line about "the exceptionalism of the country and people" plus this idea that is it is at the forefront of "progressive thought" whatever that is. I just hope that people over there really do not take themselves that seriously nor that they have to be the spearhead of all things PC, as though New Zealand was a country that somehow was once part of California.

Anonymous said...

Clear and insightful - I believe Trotter encourages thoughtful, respectful examination of ideas in this piece. I interpret that he supports seemingly opposite ideas being examined in a certain light so that they are not held as confrontational but as positively developmental.

David George said...

I wonder if an inability, or fear, to engage in debate is a result of an inability to think critically, to set up a debate in your own mind. Perhaps the overreaction to unfamiliar ideas is because they've never even been considered. Critical thinking seems to be in short supply - unfortunately the same cannot to be said about the dogmatic critical theory. Do they even teach our young people that skill anymore.

The "what is a woman" question, is often answered with "someone that identifies as a woman"; a non answer if ever there was one. Woman still hasn't been defined and what does "identify as" even mean? That sort of circular "thinking" is far from unusual.

"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling."

Thomas Sowell

David George said...

Chris: "As an old lefty, I can attest to the emotional wrench involved in having to own-up to the wrongs of people you once believed were doing the right thing."

There's a saying: "the worst advertisement for socialism is socialists"; a bit harsh but I can well imagine you cringing with embarrassment when reminded of it's veracity in the comments section of your own blog.

Anonymous said...

You make it sound like the minorities should thank their masters for being benevolent. Yeah nah.

John Hurley said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
You make it sound like the minorities should thank their masters for being benevolent. Yeah nah.
............
My theory is that there is an unintended consequence of destroying the notion of nation.
Anyone can pick holes in the myth(s) of national identity but societies have to agree on some basics and Wokeness (sacrilisation of minorities) replaces one lie with a bigger one.
What trans activists seem to be saying is that society has no boundaries (and nothing is real). One thing that won't go away however, (a constant) is human nature which evolved to make societies survive in a competitive and hostile environment. Society will always have boundaries as societies organise around sacred ideas and values. Inappropriate societal experiments will fail.
There are signs such as where Defund the Police are active crime is rampant (Chicago) and He Whenua Taurikura’ ‘a country at peace'.
The endgame of a Big Lie is simple suppression.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, there's a big gap in the media coverage of Nadine Strossen's tour of New Zealand. The two major privately owned groups did cover it, in different ways. Stuff published a column by Josie Pagani, reporting a chat over coffee with Nadine, and strongly defending free speech. NZME had Kerre Woodham interview Nadine on Newstalk ZB.

But Radio New Zealand? At the time of writing (Friday morning, April 21) a search of "Nadine Strossen" on the Radio New Zealand website returns "Nothing found". Really? A prominent proponent of free speech, who has written a book on countering hate speech with free speech, visits in the wake of a controversy over these very issues, and she gets zero coverage on a publicly owned media outlets?

No wonder Twitter tagged Radio New Zealand with a "government funded" warning. For "government funded" read "hopelessly ideologically captured", and the warning is fully merited.

Anonymous said...

I fully agree with GS on one thing at least, the "rainbow community's" behaviour in shutting down Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull's attempt to hold a free speech event was indeed pretty damn appalling.

But move it inside? The venue would be cancelled. Experiencing that was precisely why she moved to outdoor venues,such as Hyde Park in London, in the first place.

And "anti-trans" rather than "pro-women"? Well, I think women deserve full control of their lives by having the right to choose abortion. If I was in the US, I'd vote Democrat on that. But I also think women and girls have a right to female only safe spaces, female only sports, and rapists should never, ever, be locked up in women's prisons. The Republicans think they're onto a winning issue by agreeing with my views on such things.

What about women who want both? (Anywhere in the world, with local politics different from the US). Couldn't a female academic in the UK, say, use her academic freedom to make a case that trans rights do, in practice, impinge on women's rights? And that there are major problems with some of the consequences of "self ID"? That this is potentially a much bigger problem than it may first appear, because the ideology behind this constitutes an anti-scientific attack on our best current understanding of objective reality? That the ideologues want to twist language to enforce their ideology? And the ideologues will never debate, they will only shut opponents down? Kathleen Stock tried to make such a case, and got hounded out of her academic career for doing it. (Ironically, her speciality, within philosophy, is how to tell fact from fiction. She knows a fiction when she sees one, and she just tried to honestly say so).

So what to do after that? Perhaps organize open air free speech events for all women, regardless of such things as age, academic ability, class, race, or political persuasion, to discuss their experiences, and ideas for what to do next. (Men welcome too, just please wait until all the women who wish to have spoken first, before you speak). Perhaps start the discussion by re-interating basic scientific truths, such as that no one can change their biological sex, no matter how much they may wish to. Call men in dresses men. Perhaps speak bluntly on other things too, such as calling drugging, sterilizing and mutilating children too young to give fully informed consent just that, not "gender affirming health care". Be blunt and speak plainly, because women being considerate, polite, accommodating, and agreeing to "inclusion", is part of what got us into this mess in the first place. Somehow managing to remain pleasant, thoughtful, considerate and polite in the face of the attacks on her didn't stop Kathleen Stock being cancelled.

Fund it in the 21st century way by selling your "merch" on the internet. (Even if the "merch" carries "hate speech" such as the dictionary definition: woman; adult human female).

I'd happily attend such a blunt speaking, self funded, free speech event, whoever organized it. I'd look forward to hearing a wide range of views, and maybe even contribute myself, if there was time...... oh, that's right, I tried, but the thugs under the rainbow flags charged in and shut it down before it could even start. That was, indeed, pretty damn appalling.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

"There are signs such as where Defund the Police are active crime is rampant (Chicago)"

Nonsense. 1st of all defunding the police isn't happening. Secondly it doesn't mean cutting their budgets so much as not giving them all the military toys that they seem to want to buy these days. And I might add spending the money on social programs that defuse situations where some mentally challenged guys sitting by the side of the road with a toy truck and get shot because the cops thought it was a gun.

And research has shown that there is no correlation between police funding and rises or falls in crime.

"Kimberly Dodson, a retired law enforcement officer who is now a criminologist at the University of Houston-Clear Lake, said that's because police mostly react to crime."

I don't know why Chicago always gets such a bad rap in these things, because it is by no means the worst American city – last time I checked its murder rate was 25th. It might have gone up and down since then but I really can't be bothered doing another hour\s worth of investigating. Brandolini's law. But it hasn't defunded the police, and it's not likely to.


"Similarly, Chicago police spending is up 15% since 2019. That's almost a quarter billion dollars in new police spending since 2019."


"but the thugs under the rainbow flags charged in and shut it down before it could even start."

The woman is a provocateur, and probably not interested very much on free speech except for hers. And her speech provokes violence against trans people, similar to the way Fox News promotes violence amongst lonely pensioners sitting in their lounge watching their lying talking heads on TV with a gun in their lap ready to shoot someone who happens to turn into the wrong driveway.
Or for that matter those who attacked the Capitol in Washington.


"The recent visit by British anti-trans rights activist Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull has sparked a massive increase in the level of online hatred directed at the trans community here.
Analysts monitoring online extremism say it has hit new lows with one researcher describing it as "genocidal".
They say the content is now being widely distributed by anti-mandate and anti-government groups.
And there are fears violence could spill out into the world."

So how do you balance her right to freedom of incitement against people's right to be free from violence?

Chris Trotter said...

To: Guerilla Surgeon.

Your comments on Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull are ill-informed in the extreme. Linking her "Let Women Speak" gatherings with another American gun tragedy is ridiculous and offensive.

As for The Disinformation Project's latest hysteria, I would simply observe that no evidence for its wild claims was offered - or asked for by the journalists (and I used that word loosely) who covered the media release.

Were the boot on the other foot, the charge would be "spreading disinformation".

You should really see someone about those knee-jerks.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

Chris. I would imagine that if any journalist – including you – who wanted to monitor Internet sites as Dr Hattotuwa did could easily do so. You might disagree with the hyperbole, but it seems to me the evidence is almost certainly there.

Ridiculous and offensive? The offence I think is only in the degree. Fox News has a much greater reach than Keen-Minshull, and therefore does much greater damage.

I really think the knee-jerk is on your side and the rest of the free-speech extremists. You've consistently "forgotten" that speech has consequences. I thought you had finally realised this when you accused the press of being responsible for the hysteria surrounding the woman. It seems a little one-sided to me to say this and then ignore anti-trans rhetoric.

I have acquaintance of a couple of trans people. Admittedly not in NZ. But they pretty much live in fear that if they are true to themselves, statistically – eventually they will face violence simply for that. They are disproportionately affected by violence and the rhetoric that people like Keen Minshull – which you and your fellows defend – contributes to this. I find this lack of empathy disturbing.

According to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey:

Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.
Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.
Nearly half (47%) of respondents were sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime and one in ten (10%) were sexually assaulted in the past year. In communities of color, these numbers are higher: 53% of Black respondents were sexually assaulted in their lifetime and 13% were sexually assaulted in the last year.
72% of respondents who have done sex work, 65% of respondents who have experienced homelessness, and 61% of respondents with disabilities reported being sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
More than half (54%) experienced some form of intimate partner violence, including acts involving coercive control and physical harm.

https://hrc-prod-requests.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/files/assets/resources/Dismantling-a-Culture-of-Violence-010721.pdf

My opinion is that Keen Minshull and others simply refuse to take responsibility for this sort of thing, and you support them – which is disappointing to say the least.

Anonymous said...

Same anonymous as 21 April@ 11:39 here Chris.

I could say a lot in reply to GS on Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, but you have summed it up nicely in your reply to him.

All I would add is that, as far as I know, there are currently two cases before the courts, involving assault charges, arising from the events on March 25 in Albert Park. One is the tomato based assault on K-J K-M, and the other is assault by a young male on an elderly woman. The violence on the day appears to me to have been all one way. If I am wrong, and anyone on the "rainbow" side was actually physically assaulted, they should press the police to press charges. I'd also urge anyone from under the "rainbow" who was actually directly verbally threatened with imminent violence to lay charges as well. Bit hard to bring any such charges against K-J K-M herself though, because she was stopped from uttering anything much at all.

Gary Peters said...

Self reporting surveys are not worth the time it takes to scan them.

David George said...

GS: "Keen Minshull and others simply refuse to take responsibility for this sort of thing"

Blame the victim?
The feminists aren't promoting anti trans violence as far as I can see. They are, however, being regularly threatened with bashing, rape and murder by the trans activists. Strangely those threats are often ignored by the authorities despite them being more than just idle threats as we have seen. Nothing to say on the "stomp a terf" signs and calls to "pack a brick in your handbag"?

Guerilla Surgeon said...

Self reporting surveys might not be the gold standard, but they can at least give an indication.

If Chris (and maybe some of you commenters) climbed down from your ivory tower and went to talk to some ordinary trans people instead of insulting one of the few left-wing people who bothers to comment on this site – and learned how their day-to-day lives are made worse by people like Keen Minshull, you might understand why they reacted the way they did. Not an excuse perhaps but at least an explanation. I would have thought any journalist worth their salt would have at least done this.

I'm afraid hysteria has to some extent taken over both sides. The anti-trans people who seem to be operating on fear of the strange and unknown, and the "spokespeople" for the trans community, who like most spokespeople tend to specialise in hyperbole.

The fuss over the assaults which will be dealt with by the courts no doubt, seems to me to be just a little excessive. I didn't see this level of outrage when Ardern was treated in much the same way by nutty right-wing demonstrators. I didn't see this level of outrage when Ardern received death threats. I didn't see this level of outrage where a Maori woman was abused and threatened because of her moko. I don't remember this level of outrage when someone delivered a pig head to a mosque in Christchurch. Hell, if we go back far enough there wasn't this level I have outrage amongst you people when Pacifica people suffered the dawn raids. You're pretty much silent on extreme right abuse and violence. So say all you like to me anonymous but perhaps look at the beam in your own eye.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

Come to think of it, not that I'd accuse anyone here of being like that but if you were over on that cesspit that is MSN, people were excusing the violence and abuse directed at Ardern on the grounds that she "brought it on herself."

Guerilla Surgeon said...

David- I have condemned violence by trans activists. I have never seen you condemn violence by your side. Never. You might not condone it - difficult to say - but I have never heard you condemn it. See my examples above.
The extreme right are gaming 'free speech' in order to promote violence against people they hate/despise. And the results have been dire.

Anonymous said...

https://twitter.com/SimonRAnderson1/status/1648539395035746306

David George said...

Thanks GS, not sure the topic of conservative violence has come up here, regardless, I'm not convinced that it's much of a problem, here in NZ anyway; though no doubt you'll google up something. The Herald described the Taliban as "conservative" and I'm certainly not a fan of that lot, not a fan of your extreme partisanship either come to that.

A Poison Tree, by William Blake

I was angry with my friend;
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

And I waterd it in fears,
Night & morning with my tears:
And I sunned it with smiles,
And with soft deceitful wiles.

And it grew both day and night.
Till it bore an apple bright.
And my foe beheld it shine,
And he knew that it was mine.

And into my garden stole,
When the night had veild the pole;
In the morning glad I see;
My foe outstretched beneath the tree.

https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/04/25/let-them-tell-their-wrath/

Guerilla Surgeon said...

"though no doubt you'll google up something"

The sadness of it all is that you won't.

"First, artist Sam Duckor-Jones' pink church in Greymouth was vandalised with homophobic and antisemitic slurs. The pride flag out front was burned.

A few days later, an office in Tauranga used by Rainbow Youth and Gender Dynamix burned down in what police termed a suspicious fire."

And then I slept
And, waking in the wasted air,
Saw and heard thus –
He whom I saw seemed like a cavalier,
And I heard this:
“Watching my people die
Does not satisfy
even if they broke their word,
Even if they deserve
to be governed by King Turd.
Roosevelt, Churchill and Eden
bastards to a man,
Liar, Jew and glutton
have squeezed the people dry
like sheep!

Ezra Pound