Monday 1 November 2021

Turning Up Angry.

Goin' Full Cray-Cray: The vandalism of a Panmure Vaccination Centre came just a day after an estimated 5,000 anti-vaxxers staged an impromptu march from the Auckland Domain to Newmarket and back. Clearly, the maintenance of social cohesion in Auckland is fast becoming a critical issue for the authorities as the Covid-19 Delta Outbreak intensifies across New Zealand’s largest city.

AROUND MID-DAY on Sunday (31/10/21) Auckland City Councillor, Josephine Bartley, tweeted. “Anti vax now turning violent smashed shop front of our local pasifika provider here in Panmure after our successful community vax yesterday and the online abuse they been receiving unacceptable.” Half an hour later, the Councillor tweeted again. “Oh boy pacific leaders turning up here angry that’s not helpful. Just waiting on police and have sorted business Association for camera footage. I know we have strong anti vax movement here in my area but what we don’t want is for this to become violent and for retaliation.”

The vandalism in Panmure came just a day after an estimated 5,000 anti-vaxxers staged an impromptu march from the Auckland Domain to Newmarket and back. Clearly, the maintenance of social cohesion in Auckland is fast becoming a critical issue for the authorities as the Covid-19 Delta Outbreak intensifies across New Zealand’s largest city.

The biggest concern for the political and law enforcement agencies should not, however, be the behaviour of the anti-vaxxers – deeply concerning though that may be – but how much anti-vax provocation the vaccinated majority is prepared to tolerate. No matter how ugly the anti-vaxxers get, any kind of co-ordinated backlash from the vaccinated is bound to get uglier.

Seized with all the passion of true believers, the anti-vaxxers have yet to demonstrate any awareness of this acute vulnerability. There are a number of reasons for this. Not the least of which is that the communities from which they draw their energy and (mis)information are virtual – not real.

Without social-media, the anti-vaxxers would be unable to escape the reality of their isolation from the broader society’s shared understanding of the Covid-19 crisis and its remedies. Prior to the arrival of the Internet, it required considerable fortitude for a single citizen, or tiny group of citizens, to challenge the accepted wisdom of the overwhelming majority. Human-beings do not like to live outside the social embrace. Ostracism is a terrible punishment.

With social media, however, it is possible for individuals to join communities in which their dissident views are echoed enthusiastically by every member. The natural safeguards against making oneself a social outlier, with all the risks which, historically, marginalising oneself incurs, are simply over-ridden by the twenty-first century’s astonishing communications technology. When everyone you talk to reads the same thing, and believes the same thing, then your outlier status is concealed and your outré convictions strengthened.

This misapprehension of reality is aggravated by the fact that so much of the anti-vaxxers’ world view is bound up with the notion that those who reject their ideas are not simply mistaken, but malevolent. That so many people share a completely different understanding of what is going on in relation to Covid-19, and what to do about it, is taken as proof of the monstrousness of the global conspiracy, of which the virus is but one part. Far from seeing themselves as the deluded victims of disinformation, the anti-vaxxers regard themselves as an heroic minority of truth-tellers. Some go further, describing themselves as “purebloods”. What does that makes the rest of New Zealand society? Zombies?

The problem this poses for the Police is enormous. Although the percentage of hard-core anti-vaxxers may be very small, when manifested in flesh and blood, on the streets of Auckland, even a small percentage can take on an extremely menacing aspect. Five thousand anti-vaccination protesters, many of them vociferously anti-government, have the potential to do a lot of damage: to private property; to their vaccinated fellow citizens; and – not least – to the Police themselves.

There has been much criticism of Police Commissioner, Andrew Coster, for appearing to “do nothing” about obvious and egregious violations of the Level 3 Covid-19 regulations. In the eyes of those Aucklanders who have done everything they were asked to do: stay at home; social distance; wear masks; get vaccinated; the inaction of the Police in the face of anti-vaxxer defiance is intolerable. Many cannot help feeling that the likes of “Bishop” Brian Tamaki and his Destiny Church are laughing in their faces. Why aren’t the Police getting stuck in?

The surprisingly forthright answer of the Health Minister, Andrew Little, when questioned on this matter by Q+A’s Jack Tame was: “Because you can’t arrest 5,000 people.” The Minister is quite correct, and this is Coster’s dilemma. Taking even 500 protesters into custody would require a Police operation of unprecedented scale. The Police Commissioner simply does not command the human and material resources needed to mount such an operation. And, even if he did, he would be most unwise to do so.

The level of craziness in the anti-vax movement is such that an aggressive Police response would, almost certainly, spark a ferociously violent reaction from the hard core anti-vaxxers. Coster will be very anxious to avoid the sort of running battles between protesters and riot cops that took place on the streets of Melbourne for three straight days.

Not the least of these worries would be straightforwardly tactical. To arrest and detain a fully-grown human-being who is behaving aggressively requires at least two – more likely three or four – police officers. Unwilling to deplete their on-the-ground strength by ordering such mass arrests, Police commanders will resort to tactics designed to immobilise and/or disperse violent protesters. Pepper-spray, tear gas, rubber bullets, truncheons: all of these riot-control weapons were deployed in Melbourne. It ain’t a pretty sight.

What’s more, it doesn’t work. Escalation of force on the part of the Police, simply begets escalation of force on the part of the protesters. Whatever moderation remaining among the leadership of Auckland’s anti-vaxxers would be shunted aside by hard-core extremist elements – many of them Pentecostal Christians convinced they are on the eve of the Battle of Armageddon. Better by far to let 5,000 people let off a bit of steam by marching from the Domain to Newmarket and back again, than to have at least some of them running down Queen Street smashing windows and beating up cops.

All well and good, but for how long are people like Councillor Bartley and her Pasifika constituents supposed to put up with abusive and threatening phone-calls and the vandalising of vaccination clinics? If conscious law-breaking is not met with a decisive Police response, then it will increase. All that is ever required to bring out the absolute worst in human-beings is a rising level of confidence that their actions will not bring consequences.

 If it becomes clear to Police commanders (and one hopes that Police Intelligence is in a position to advise them) that such voices of moderation as could be counted on among the anti-vaxxers are no longer being heeded, and that, even in the absence of heavy-handed policing, extremist violence is about to escalate –– then all bets must be considered off.


This essay was originally posted on the Interest.co.nz website on Monday, 1st November 2021.

40 comments:

Anonymous said...

Interesting to note when displaying the numbers of antivax protestors. 5000 is not such a bad number for Auckland. An equivalent comparison would be 6000 paid up members of the Labor party for thew whole of NZ.

Yobi said...

Chris you wouldn’t want to be called a Vax Nazi, I’m sure you would describe yourself pro vaccination. Therefore treat those how you wold like to be treated. Currently broadly speaking there are two groups in New Zealand, pro vaccination and pro choice. Just because you don’t like the pro choice, doesn’t give you the right to be disrespectful.

Tiger Mountain said...

Yes, a bit of a bind for the coppers and the vaccinated. Operational realities in Auckland also prevented them piling in at Ihumatāo when the online call went out for reinforcements and Police knew thousands of potential supporters were just minutes away.



oneblokesview said...

Just a small point. Stop rattling on about anti vaxxers.
Many amongst the crowd(moi included) were fully vaccinated.
Many were just over the stupidity of lockdowns.

That was the main feeling during the march.
Yes some antivaxxers
But many Many wanting the stupidity of level 3 removed.

Kat said...


Not only is NZ a politically divided nation based on whether ones wears red, blue, green, yellow or black tribal colours, amongst that division are the various societal outsiders that include the "turning up angry" brigade.

I would imagine that should "extremist violence is about to escalate" these outsiders won't "like it up em".......

Here's something to hum along with when reading about Mr Tamaki and his cohorts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POq5g9vRTzM

A O said...

It is clear, crystal clear that the key problem here is information. Whether it be the so-called anti-vaxxers and the information that fuels their beliefs or the vaccinated and what beliefs, or information, will fuel their backlash against the anti-vaxxed mob. Because after all, if its information (or misinformation) that fuels one mob then it is not hard to see that it will be information that fuels the other mob also. So, the answer to this problem is again - crystal clear - why don't we all just sit down and discuss our differences? We can start right here, what are some of the concerns that worry people about either side of this issue? Remembering of course, that if you really are a true believer (of either side of this issue) then you'll be able to produce the relevant(and verifiable) evidence that supports your beliefs.

Anonymous said...

The infamous Police Red and Blue Squads seemed to have no qualms whaling into protestors during the ‘81 Springbok tour - and those were peaceful demonstrators. Why the difference this time?

Anonymous said...

Here's a thing Chris

The cops may well have been unable to arrest 5,000 people but they could have arrested those attending gang tangis in large (but less than 5,000) numbers

They could have done something about the gangs breaching borders

They could even have done something about the Maori liaison officer who barged over the border with friends in tow after telling the cop guarding said border that he "couldn't stop him"

But guess what. The cops did sweet FA and burbled on about "marginalised communities"

Also guess what. Forget the 5,000 that you're talking about the cops' laissez faire attitude has pissed-off a lot more than just those 5,000

When we see "rules for thee but not for me" it's guaranteed way to get middle-Aucklanders' backs up. And, you know what, many of us are "mad as hell, and we're not going to take it"

So screw the Labour govt and its pandering, screw the cops and their obeisance to a certain section of society and if certain parts of that society can't do the sensible thing screw them too - I care as much for their lives as they care for mine. Zero

DS said...

>>>That was the main feeling during the march.
Yes some antivaxxers
But many Many wanting the stupidity of level 3 removed.<<<

If you want Level 3 removed, obey Level 3. It's really that simple. That, and encourage your anti-vaxx colleagues in the march to actually do their ****ing bit for society.

All you muppets are doing is prolonging this. The more you spread the disease around, the more the restrictions are needed... so stay at home, and don't spread the disease around.

DS said...

>>>Chris you wouldn’t want to be called a Vax Nazi, I’m sure you would describe yourself pro vaccination. Therefore treat those how you wold like to be treated. Currently broadly speaking there are two groups in New Zealand, pro vaccination and pro choice. Just because you don’t like the pro choice, doesn’t give you the right to be disrespectful.<<<

Chris is being too respectful, mate. If you choose to kill thousands of people annually because of something you read on the Internet, don't expect any respect (let alone sympathy) from the rest of the country.

The Barron said...

Mid-90s my friend from the left warned me about post-modernism. At the time I dismissed it as a harmless bit of pseudo-intellectual wank. It was often cited by tertiary Feminist's and others as 'deconstruction', I could understand where they were wanting to go, but always thought they could get there independently of this system of analysis which in itself didn't hold up to analysis.

Centric to this babble was the idea that all views are subjective and of equal value, Reason is subjective, and the very idea of a fact is in fact a social construct and has a different reality for the speaker and the listener. Yep, I thought it a harmless wank, but I hope my left friends are acknowledging this mea culpa. They warned it is the 'left' surrendering hard won territory to the right, there would be a reckoning.

Now in thee days of 'alternative facts', and mainstream media being sidelined, I look at the post modernism of the right and the destruction it has been able to do regarding Covid19.

I really do not know why 'AO' write of 'information'. That is not the point to these people, they have 'information' it is just illogical and wrong. It is not hard to find the alternative facts hidden in the ether of the net, or even from senior American political figures.

The trouble with believing that there is some sort of debate on this pulls us into failing to address the primary question, what do we about those that think there is an equality to views and information when holding that view and having reasonable access to society will be a hazard to others?

To make a very quick differentiation between views and actions we simply need to look at potential consequences. I am double dosed, I swipe in the few times I shop, and wear my mask as the health experts have recommended. I get tested occasionally, this is generally if I think any relaxing of Government restrictions may bring me into further contact, especially with elderly relatives. If the advice I have believed from a very high number of sources, including the Government advice, is wrong - then no-one has been put at any risk by any of my actions. I have taken all precautions, and I have been motivated by the greatest good for my community.

The non-vaccinated and those who deliberately defy restrictions and precautions may think they have 'information' and that we should respect their individual view has having the same status as experts, but this is just the right-wing post-modernist bullshit. Motivated by disregard to public health and the right somehow to individualism in a communal crisis, their starting point is wrong in a civil society. More importantly, the consequences of them being wrong can be bringing death and disablement to the community, especially those most vulnerable.

To jab or not to jab is not a reasonable and balanced question. What is before you is take a recommend precaution for yourself and society, or separate yourself from the needs of society and act in such a way your fellow citizens are likely suffer. It is a choice that you are making in the knowledge harm to others is a significantly likely outcome.

David George said...

As oneblokesview has pointed out many (most?) of the protesters were not antivax but people tired of, or morally opposed to, the lockdowns and no jab-no job-no holiday passports plan. The chants and posters that I saw reported were around those issues not antivax.

There are some very significant rights issues involved here but haven't heard a peep out of our human rights commission or the council for civil liberties outfit, mind you they seem quite happy with increased restrictions on our free speech as well so not much credibility there. Looks like we'll have to fight our own rights battles without support from the outfits that pretend to support them.

The HR commission have a very strange way of prioritising rights, corrupted by critical theory it seems. A trans right to share girls toilets trumps girls rights to privacy?

Have a read about this utterly outrageous sequence of events and have a guess which side our rights people would be on.https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/10/30/loudoun-county-and-the-cruelty-of-trans-ideology/

David George said...

The upcoming Groundswell protest will be massive, a collective rural and urban howl of outrage at the government, their manifold failings and their disgraceful policies too numerous to list. Be interesting to see the reaction if the police try and stop that one or arrest the organisers

All around the country, 21st November. https://groundswellnz.co.nz/events/

Shane McDowall said...

The authorities should have taken advantage of the protest march and sprayed the lot of them vapourised Covid-19.

See how much they love their freedom/stupidity when they are fighting for every breath.

Post armed soldiers (or vaxxed vigilanties) around every hospital and direct these Covid infected anti-vax morons to the nearest Pentecostal church.

Soon they will be safe in the arms Brian Tamaki and shortly after, the arms of Jesus.

Darwin Awards for all anti-vaxxers.

greywarbler said...

There are some very significant rights issues involved here but haven't heard a peep out of our human rights commission or the council for civil liberties outfit, mind you they seem quite happy with increased restrictions on our free speech as well so not much credibility there. Looks like we'll have to fight our own rights battles without support from the outfits that pretend to support them.

Too much addle-pated thinking David George. An important right that is being upheld here which you take for granted apparently, is the one to maintain a balanced and reasoned society able to conduct itself in reasonable health to reasonable standards, with the controls of the land empowering this, as much as possible. It is necessary to pass controls well thought out, to cover all the citizens with few left out when there is a problem affecting all. This ensures that people are not suffering disadvantage from others' actions such as refusing to vaccinate.

Example of sect decision: Jehovah's Witnesses have let their children die n the past because they don't believe in blood transfusions. That has been regarded as their right. But I don't want any feckless irresponsible sect telling broad society what to do.

greywarbler said...

I'm sick of seeing 'Anonymous' here. Everybody who writes here should have a unique identifier. Even if it is Anonymous and a number or letter. How that person identifies themself is their right but let's be clearer than now.

Simon Cohen said...

Pray tell me the difference between Anonymous and Greywarbler.
Everyone who comments should use their own name and not hide behind a nom de plume.

Tom Hunter said...

The authorities should have taken advantage of the protest march and sprayed the lot of them vapourised Covid-19.
...
Soon they will be safe in the arms Brian Tamaki and shortly after, the arms of Jesus.


Gosh, Shane, if you want the state to get these people into the arms of Jesus you're going to have to do much better than killing only about 1 in 400 of them.

A O said...

Well, The Barron, my primary 'takeaway' from Chris's article is that it is information that drives the so-called 'anti-vax' brigade therefore it stands to reason that it will be information that fuels the response to it. Information is the oil that arguably divides both sides of this issue, therefore again, it will be information, and the examination and understanding of this, that may potentially heal the rift between these sides. Communication, after all, tends to be the answer to most people problems....

greywarbler said...

Simon Cohen You need to open the gate in your head and let some new ideas in. A nomdeplume is an identifier as much as a personal name is. In your case I don't know you and you could actually be someone called Izzie Meinfeldt - I don't know. In a changing world to keep coming out with the same old routine shibboleths all the time makes your opinions redundant.

David George said...

Thanks greywarbler, I'm not so foolish as to believe that these things are straightforward, that there aren't trade-offs between rights and obligations. I do think the rights watchdog outfits should have been sounding a warning to the government over some of this though.

What are we becoming: The PM has confirmed that "Auckland's hard border will stay in place over summer with only double vaxxed people allowed to escape the locked down city"

Aside from the logistical nightmare of policing this mad idea there's an obvious draconian dimension to it that many will find offensive and dangerous. I know I do.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

The difference between greywarbler and anonymous is that grey has standing and continuity here, and anonymous could be anyone – multiple personalities. :) And as I've explained before, some of us used to feel that our bosses had no business knowing our political opinions, as long as we did our jobs. And I've known a couple of people who were constructively dismissed, essentially for their political opinions. Something which presumably you Simon: don't have to worry about, given the compatibility between employers and the far right.

A O said...

“AROUND MID-DAY on Sunday (31/10/21) Auckland City Councillor, Josephine Bartley, tweeted. “Anti vax now turning violent smashed shop front of our local pasifika provider here in Panmure after our successful community vax yesterday and the online abuse they been receiving unacceptable.”

Before we automatically lay blame on a specific grouping of people, we should first establish who committed these acts and what their possible motives, affiliations are for doing so. I believe it to be incredibly important that we actually get the facts right here because apart from the division these types of actions (and reactions to them) creates, these very same allegations (and possible resultant actions thereafter) have the ability to be used against any one of us also.

“The vandalism in Panmure came just a day after an estimated 5,000 anti-vaxxers staged an impromptu march from the Auckland Domain to Newmarket and back.”

How do we know this was an anti-vaxxer march? Well, the picture used within this piece shows us so! If you are for freedoms and rights – you are an anti-vaxxer. If you are against mandates – you are an anti-vaxxer. Against lock downs in any shape or form – anti-vaxxer. And which side of the political divide is most commonly associated with the anti-vax brigade. Well, it certainly is not the Left side of this divide. Thus, it is crystal clear that freedom, rights, choices, most likely free speech in the not too distant future also – will have no place on the political Left.

And all because of what. All because of what I can only describe as a beautifully crafted narrative that plays on one of the key strengths of the Left, if not humanity overall – the concern for the other! The concern for the other. Many, if not most comments here and on Covid matters in general, are shaped by this concern. This is a smart narrative indeed. And when you couple this with endless government sponsored, media fear-messaging narratives, and hey presto, you have a ready made, mass audience ready to comply to any governmental dictate and narrative they care to spin.

And these narratives are working a treat as evidenced by the fact that the very same government who once preached, togetherness, inclusiveness and the quite endearing ‘team of five million’ narrative, has now reversed course and is actively and happily, creating division and discrimination within that former team we were once, for a very long time, led to believe we were all part of. And the biggest problem here, the biggest problem by far is nary a complaint by anyone, least of all the media, about this very stark turn of events. Have we all lost our minds, well, the ability to think for ourselves at least? Heck, is that a crime even, to think for yourself, perhaps, dare I say it, put yourself first? Well, for those workers unwilling to take the shot, clearly it is. And is this actually a Left-leaning government anymore now that they are actively encouraging division and discrimination? And heck, all those cheerfully supporting these actions, forget about what side of the political divide they now no longer fall on, one has to question their humanity as well! But to be fair to them – fear – clouds the mind, especially - endless fear - and smart, targeted messaging, that plays on the mind also. And the next biggest problem here is that government (of either/any persuasion) now has the tools to ‘influence’ the public into accepting any dictate they care to think of. As if being a divided people isn’t bad enough. But a public that is easily ‘influenced’ into accepting any government action, well, no good will come from any of this. But alas, this is where we are at....

Russ the muss said...

Would still only kill 0.5%. TO be honest IM kinda on the anti vaxxers side. If I was treated like a 2nd class citizen, mocked and locked out of everything, I'm thinking I would go off the reservation as well, this is very predictable and the more we push them the more they will fight like cornered cats. They will also be helped by libertarians. It will be fascinating to observe if nothing else. Cause and effect.

David George said...

The Loudoun County school incident (trans rapist story linked above) had a major influence in the defeat of the "progressive" democrat incumbent. Hiding the rape of fifteen year old school girls in their toilets by some sicko in a skirt now aligns with the progressive agenda?

“Glenn Youngkin’s success in the bellwether counties shows that a strong conservative agenda can lead to victory. Too often, the media has a false narrative that conservative Republicans are less electable than moderate Republicans. The opposite is true, and we see that in Virginia. Youngkin’s agenda of standing for individual liberty and against mask and vaccine mandates, and putting parents back in charge of their children’s education, cut across partisan lines and energized not just conservatives, but Independent voters and even some Democrats. Youngkin’s big win, especially in the bellwether counties, holds important lessons for 2022 and beyond.”

I can see this here: democratic principles destroyed, trans ideology implemented, disregard of fundamental liberties, free speech criminalised, CRT in schools, school choice in the bin, theft of community assets and an utterly repugnant racist agenda among the crowning a achievements. The worst government in our history?

Guerilla Surgeon said...

The death rate for Covid 19 ranges from nil to about 9% New Zealand is on the low end of that, but that's partly because we locked down and our hospitals haven't been filled to overflowing. I sometimes wonder though what sort of death rate would it take for the sort of eejits who don't get themselves vaccinated to get themselves vaccinated. We pretty much know it's not between 1% and 2% – 5%? 10%? Pneumonic plague had a death rate of over 90%, would that shift them? Maybe we should just wait for the next Ebola outbreak and see, because no doubt experimenting would be unethical.

Maninblack said...

These protests arnt just antivaxxers. I was there and i am double vaxxed.
I was there to protest the insane lockdowns, 3 waters, He Pua Pua, mandates, the rise in gang numbers, MIQ policies and so on.

This is going to cause carnage. Our country is headed into a very ugly place.
I am a double vaxxed person with Maori Ancestry.. and what is happening is a disgrace. I support more protests.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

A collective howl of outrage? Seems to me as they say in the US – "The fuck your feelings crowd sure have a lot of feelings." It also seems to me that all these outraged people want all the freedoms without any of the responsibilities. Not totally unexpected given their political persuasion.

The Barron said...

I have a respect for those that contribute to this political blog. I do not agree with many, but generally I have an appreciation of debate

I do not think that some comments I read regarding issues such as racism is not without a type of societal harm, but that harm is indirect and it is sometimes important to know those views are out there.

I draw a difference with Covid19 vaccines. The pretense that there is even a debate is part of the problem.

I have sympathy for those that truly are mislead, but those that read this blog are able to understand the issue. Those that suggest we should ignore all articles in Stuff, the Herald, AP, Reuters, TV 1 News, TV3 News, the BBC...are involved in information avoidance. To discredit all mainstream media and world authorities is simply nuts. The true problem is the actual harm produced.

I do not wish to repeat this, but I was in Samoa whole American and Australian anti-vaxers carried out a highly funded and at times coordinated campaign to disrupt measle vaccination impervious to the result of the death of children

AO, you can continue your idea that there is an information debate, but I reiterate there is only harm or responsibility. The pseudo-inteĺleçtual crap may make you think your clever, but the result of the behaviour of the anti-vax campaigners will be real world harm to the vulnerable and families.

Simon Cohen said...

-Something which presumably you Simon: don't have to worry about, given the compatibility between employers and the far right.-

As a retired university professor I am surprised to hear I was employed by the far right.
Unfortunately people like Greywarbler and Guerilla Surgeon who hide behind nom de plumes can make these assertions without worrying about the consequences.
And of course Guerilla Surgeon will have known people who have been constructively dismissed for their political opinions !!!!!
If he had any knowledge of modern employment law he would know that the penalties for constructive dismissal are severe.
I would also be very interested to know which of my comments he thinks suggest I am of the far right. But go on making assertions with no foundation in fact. No one will ever be able to attribute them to you as you hide your identity behind a nom de plume.
Some people might call it cowardice.

Trev1 said...

There's a simple answer. Declare 1 December "Freedom Day" for vaxxed and anti-vaxxers alike, and let Darwin take the hindmost.

greywarbler said...

Maninblack
You could try using your reason.
Cause and effect of authority response. A time and a place for everything.
Think outcomes, not just righteousness and indignation. Do you want to dig in the nation? Your lack of thinking and foolish naive attitudes will get us there.

greywarbler said...

Russ the muss
Why should I try to use reason when you produce garbage Bring back the bubonic plague I reckon, argue with that for a short time then fall over - dead. That is one way to shut up the poseurs.

A O said...

The Barron....
"I draw a difference with Covid19 vaccines. The pretense that there is even a debate is part of the problem. "
Why is this...what do you know that perhaps I am missing?

“Those that suggest we should ignore all articles in Stuff, the Herald, AP, Reuters, TV 1 News, TV3 News, the BBC...are involved in information avoidance. To discredit all mainstream media and world authorities is simply nuts. The true problem is the actual harm produced. “
I agree somewhat here but I suggest that ignoring any media source is problematic. My problem – with all media sources – is when they fail to provide the (verifiable) proof behind any claims they make, especially, as mentioned before, claims that have the ability to divide or influence people in a potentially negative manner. It should be standard practice, in this age of misinformation, that proof be required for claims made.

“I do not wish to repeat this, but I was in Samoa whole American and Australian anti-vaxers carried out a highly funded and at times coordinated campaign to disrupt measle vaccination impervious to the result of the death of children”
At least this snippet gives us insight into your state of mind around the vaccine issue, even though the vaccines themselves are not the problem (when choice is an option). The problem are the measures centred around them!

“AO, you can continue your idea that there is an information debate, but I reiterate there is only harm or responsibility. The pseudo-inteĺleçtual crap may make you think your clever, but the result of the behaviour of the anti-vax campaigners will be real world harm to the vulnerable and families.”
Harm is being done on both sides of this unnecessary divide. As such, I am not looking to debate, I am looking to problem solve! And the key to solving the information/misinformation-fueled problems I see, is understanding. How do we know what we know?

Guerilla Surgeon said...

I might not know about modern employment law Simon, but I've seen the sneaky ways in which people can be gotten rid of. I've seen their departments reduced in size until they are amalgamated with someone else's and someone else has chosen to lead it. In education I've seen their subjects which ones were compulsory, made an elective and placed against something that is regarded as essential.
I'm not – according to Brandolini's law prepared to go back through all your comments and decide which ones make you "far right". But in fact my definition was in keeping with the usual right-wing definition of "far left" which in fact means centre-left – so I am quite prepared to believe that in reality you are centre-right, or even centrist – Forgive me for replying in kind.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

Dammit, I'm half asleep from picking up my son after one of his shitty shifts. It's not just the bosses Simon, several times I was rung up and abused by people on account of letters I wrote to the Dominion Post under my own name. My seven year old son answered the phone one day and was abused likewise and told that his father was going straight to hell because of a letter I'd written to the Dominion Post under my own name. Luckily he had the nous to say we don't believe in hell and hung up.
Some people are prepared to go to an inordinate amount of time ringing up everyone in the area with a certain name to find out who wrote a letter. Anyone who's prepared to do that might be prepared to go even further. So maybe as an ex-university lecturer you have a little less experience in the real world than I do – I'm sort of tempted to say fuck you and the ivory tower you rode in on, but maybe I'll just put it down to lack of real world experience on your part?
It's remarkably difficult to find out who you actually are Simon, at least within a few minutes, because of course the famous academic brother of Sasha Baron Cohen occupies the first few pages of the Google search. Now I don't like you Simon, or at least the public persona that you show on this site. I don't like the way you sneer at people who use nom de plumes, particularly people who been hanging around here a lot longer than you. But if I was a monomaniac like some of the people who responded to me I could find you – just think on that.

The Barron said...

There is no possible harm to anyone in me getting vaccinated, there is vast potential harm of someone unvaccinated having access to others, particularly the aged, children or disabled.

I continue to be clear that I support an extension of mandates to all workplaces and public spaces. Any 'harm' perceived is the self harm the unvaccinated have chosen.

Simon Cohen said...

Guerilla Surgeon
Obviously you are the sort of person I should fear as you have spent some time trying to research me on Google. I wonder for what reason. You obviously are a monomaniac and do I detect a threat of what you might do if you could find me.
And as for the ivory tower and having less experience of the real world than you do I will bet that you have lived in NZ safely for your whole life.
I have had a slightly different life. A Jewish refugee from Austria with my mother as a very young child. Then separated from her and put into state care when she was interned on the Isle of Man because of her Austrian nationality.
And then discovering that your entire family had been murdered in the holocaust. So I have had a little bit of experience of the harsh realities of life. Whereas you have had by comparison a life of safety in this land of milk and honey.
But you are obviously a smug bastard.

Chris Trotter said...

To: Guerilla Surgeon and Simon Cohen:

Enough already!

Resume playing the ball - not the man.

Guerilla Surgeon said...

Well Simon, you have no idea what sort of life I've led so perhaps you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions as you accuse me of doing. I was merely pointing out the dangers of people knowing your real name and address. Some of which I have faced. How on earth you could come to the conclusion that I pose some sort of threat to you I have no idea. I spent exactly 2 minutes researching you, because I am not in fact the monomaniac – I was making the point that someone who was could probably find out who you were. I should perhaps not have assumed that you have no experience of the real world – I apologise for that, but I guarantee you have no experience of being doxxed and abused for your political opinions by strangers. I still fail to understand why you sneer at people who use pseudonyms. It's common all over the Internet, and in fact my pseudonym is used here, on disqus, and probably still on trip advisor of all places. And I have not noticed in places where the majority uses pseudonym any particular excess of abuse – at least compared to here.